Changing engraving options affects manually adjusted items

Hi all,

see topic. Probably that is how it should be, but nevertheless I would like to ask if there is any way of making a change to for instance short slur height, without affecting manually tweaked short slurs?

In general, I don’t think so. That would require that global engraving changes would subsequently remove properties, which I couldn’t see being a good thing overall.

OK, thank you for confirming. But it also does not seem to be a good thing that the Engraving settings change is added to my manual tweak.

Sorry, but I don’t see your logic here – does it not rather require that global engraving changes leave the properties alone? As it stands, they do not. They add the change to my manual tweak.

Very often, changes in settings will make manual tweaks redundant.

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Manual offset adjustments to slur properties refer to the deviation from the global setting. If the global setting changes, what do the numbers now mean?

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If you grab a slur handle and move it, you are setting a property that offsets by a set amount from the default.
If you change the default (Engraving Option), Dorico leaves your property exactly as it was, but it’s now offset from a different default.

Take a text item, for instance. Engraving Options > Text determines that the text item should be 2 spaces above the staff.
You then offset it, adding 1 space.
It is now 3 spaces above the staff.
You now alter your Engraving Options > Text, telling Dorico that the default should be 3 spaces above the staff.
Dorico moves the item so that it is 4 spaces above the staff. That’s the 3 defined in Engraving Options, plus the property that says “put this 1 space above the default”.

I’m not sure that Dorico could calculate what you want if you retrospectively change defaults.

It’s very easy to reset your manually adjusted objects to the new defaults - select them and go Edit > Reset Position and Edit > Reset Appearance (or turn off the property switches).

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Yes, exactly. I understand all that. The manual change and the new setting adds up.
Somehow I thought that changes in the options only would affect items that had not been manually adjusted, but that is apparently wrong.

To my mind it would be more logical that my manual tweaks were not changed at all. But I can see that both ways have pros and cons.

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I think this is a logical outcrop of Dorico’s working model: you input things, adjust global settings to have Dorico do as much as possible automatically, and only then do manual tweaks.

That said, I’m very sympathetic to the idea that something that is touched shouldn’t be overridden by the program; but, like you, I see it both ways. (And I think I’d keep it as it is now if pressed to vote.)

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…which is how page overrides work after all: as soon as you ‘touch’ the page, it won’t follow changes in the master page anymore.

So how about a very dangerous “almost toxic” freeze button, that keeps, what you wanted in shape and position. But then again never ever change something on that page …

Like… save as PDF?

Because manual adjustments made by way of properties are stored as deltas from the calculated positions rather than absolute values, it is inevitable that changes in engraving options that change the calculated values will therefore produce different results when the same delta value is applied to a different calculated value.

Even if we wanted to change this (and I don’t think we do) I’m not sure it would be particularly easy to do, because we would need to be able to statefully tell the difference between the old and new calculated values and then adjust the deltas to produce the same visual result. I’m not even sure that this is even in general possible (though cleverer people than me in the team would be the ones to make that determination). However, as I say, I don’t think changing this would actually be desirable in any case.

Thank you Daniel,

yes, now I understand the logic. To me it will serve as a good reminder to work with the settings more, before starting to adjust manually. I will not go into that trap again…!