Windows 10, Dorico 3.5+
Sorry but is this normal?
I would like to report a problem:
I replace the treble clef for tenor (with the 8 below) with the treble clef, but there is no shift of an octave of the notes as it should happen.
Best regards.
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Scusate ma è normale questo?
Vorrei segnalare un problema:
Sostituisco la chiave di Violino per Tenore (con l’8 sotto) con quella di violino, ma non c’è spostamento di un’ottava delle note come dovrebbe avvenire.
Cordiali saluti.
Octave transposing voices in Dorico don’t transpose unless you turn on Notation Options > Clefs > Clefs with Octave Indicators > Respect octave indicator.
This is working exactly as it’s supposed to.
The history is that most instruments and voices that use octave-transposing clefs (piccolos, guitars, double basses, etc.) always play as though there’s a little “8” next to the clef regardless of whether there is. It’s so standard that publishers will often use an ordinary treble or bass clef, without the “8”. Add into the mix the fact that the makers of VSTs can’t agree on how octave transpositions should work for these instruments, and notation software developers are left with an obvious quandary.
Grazie moltissime… 
Ci sono due strumenti che si chiamano “Tenore”: uno trasposto all’ ottava; e l’altro che non è così.
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Scegli il secondo per lavorare con altri chiavi. (Anche con “Rispette le chiavi” fisso.)
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In alternativa, si può muovere l’ottava di ogni chiavi nel pannello al fondo.)
Many thanks…
Hello, regarding to this question I think that this is a “music-Bug” in Dorico programmation. If a Violin Clef (G) with lower 8 is in effect a transposing clef (sounds a octave lower) a Tenor clef and in general a C Clef NEVER is or could be a transposing clef: it ever sounds exactly where is the line indicated, and the C is ever the C4 (or Do3 in Italian pitch convention), the central C.
So, if I don’t know that Dorico gives two possibilities in changing from G clef with lower 8 to Tenor clef, the Tenor clef MUST ever sound at real pitch, not an octave lower, regardless of any previous setting.
What do you think about? Thanks! Walter
This has been explained and discussed countless times here. By default, Dorico treats ottava clefs as ‘cosmetic’ – that is, they do NOT affect the pitch, because they are mostly used on instruments where they are optional, like the Piccolo, Contrabass, or even Tenor.
The transposition is ‘assumed’ in the instrument definition itself. As you point out, if you want to use a C4 clef in a Tenor part, then things go a bit wrong.
In order to fix this, there is a second Tenor instrument, marked “Sounds As Written”. If you use this, then the Tenor instrument will act just like a Soprano: no built-in transposition. C clefs will then work at the right pitch.
With this instrument, you will need to use functioning ottava clefs, that do transpose. You can set that preference in Notation Options; or you can change the Octave Offset of any given manually applied clef.
I mostly agree with you but: I don’t speak of the ottava clefs in they cosmetically use.
I speak of the C4 clef , the tenor clef that NEVER is transposing.
Perhaps my English don’t permit me to express my opinion correctly.
In Dorico the pitch of the tenor C4 clef -I speak of the Tenor voice- “depends” of the settings of the previous G clef with lower 8: and this for me is wrong, is a bug.
And this is important in all vocal scores in ancient clefs, harmony, partimenti and contrapuntal exercises in ancient keys. Perhaps Dorico should put in a option -when using voices- to give the opportunity to start with the C clef too.
I transcribe a lot of early music, and use Tenor with the C4 clef.
No, the pitch of the C4 clef depends on which instrument you use. Previous clefs are irrelevant.
If you use the “Sounds As Written” Tenor instrument, and set “Respect Octave Clefs” in Notation Options, then everything works as you want:
No, to have the same pitch I have to change the settings, in this sense the CTenor clef depends of the settings of the previous G8 clef::
Why should I change the settings? This is the problem! The A2 pitch for the tenor should ONLY be written as in Tenore 2 example
And for this my students of conservatoire don’t resolve the problem and ask me for .
It is not a instrument problem, while with cello or fagotto the Tenor clef works fine.
I discuss only of voices, the tenor voice.
One could simplify everything without choosing between options! The Tenor clef need no options to clarify the real pitch.
Sorry but I don’t want a debate “inter nos”, I think that a Dorico programmer would accept this question as a “musical bug” to resolve and then simplify all.
I don’t think you have turned on “Respect Octaves” in Notation Options > Clefs.
I have read a lot of the squabbles about this issue on Forums going back almost 10 years but I’d like to throw one more log on the fire.
I’m writing a musical where I want one staff to contain all the solo vocal parts, but since clefs don’t affect playback I need to find a workaround. Duncan is a baritone while Vanessa is an alto. If I “respect octaves” then everything plays back 2 octaves below pitch. If I don’t “respect octaves” the playback is where I want it for Duncan but not Vanessa or vice-versa. This score is what I want it to look like, but the playback doesn’t match.
Baritone is not supposed to be written in G clef. Maybe choose a tenor with the behavior you need (sounds an octave lower) and your playback should be ok!
The instrument I’m choosing is “Vocals” because I want that one staff to be the place where all solo vocal lines are. This is an extended piece and I don’t want to have a different staff for every soloist.
Ok. But don’t expect Dorico to give you any valuable information about the tessitura or impossible notes, when what you are doing is a manually condensed staff (I’ve done it too!)
Using a Gclef octava bassa sounding an octave below what’s written for the baritone should give you the accurate pitch (although the sound might be strange, probably a soprano voice, unless you use different voices with independent voices)
Something must be wrong: if you have set “Respect Octaves”, then the clefs should work as you want.
There is no instrument called “Vocals” in Dorico. It sounds like you’re still using the Tenor instrument with a built-in octave transposition. Change the instrument to anything other than Tenor.
As I say: there is no such instrument in Dorico. You must have changed the names to Vocals and Ensemble yourself.
Check that the Vocal instrument isn’t really a Tenor in disguise!
Yes, you are correct. The Dorico instrument is “Voice”, which I changed to Vocals.
When I “Respect Octaves” the display changes to this:
As written, Duncan and Vanessa both start on the B below Middle C. So it’s unsurprising that the playback is the same.
You want to put Vanessa’s notes up an octave? Select them and press Option Command Up. (Alt-Ctrl Up on Windows, I think.)
