Clip vs output brickwall limiter

Hi, thanks for the latest update.
From a quick experiment i´m having a problem that someone might help.
I loaded a unmastered song into a simple stereo audio montage. No plugins in the master section , only a MasterRig in the clip inspector. When i load a Brickwall limiter (after the master rig) into the clip section and set it to -0.5 dBFS MAX i get peaks around 1.4, 1.7 in the master meter.
If i load same brickwall in to the ouput section i get what i set in the brickwall limiter (-0.5 dBFS)

Someone ?

When you say “Output Section”, do you mean the Inspector Output that is in the montage?

Is there somehow a gain change on the Track or Output FX Gain gain slider in the Inspector? I always keep these locked and at 0dB but they can accidentally change if you’re not careful.

In 11.1 you can even now hide the Gain Section altogether if you don’t use it.

Some screen shots of what you have going on could help.

Can you try replicate in a blank session ?
image 1 - brickwall in the clip

image 2 -same brickwall in the output

Well, I see that your Clip Fader is boosted by 5.41dB. I always keep these at 0.0dB, locked, and now hidden but as far as I can tell, this gain is AFTER the Clip FX so it’s no surprise to find clipping in your case.

There are many other (better) places to adjust the clip gain such as in the Clips Tab, or the Volume envelope, both of which can be determined to be before or after Clip FX.

I think this is basically due to accidental improper gain staging.

thats the clip gain applied from the meta normalizer to -16 LUFS

But i feel you, clip gain is applied after the inserts (weird) so thats the cause of trouble.
I always use the final stuff in the output , i was just doing a quick test on the 11.1 and came to this. Thanks for helping :wink:

I’m fairly certain the MetaNormalizer only adjusts the gain in the actual Clips Tab, and not the Clips Fader. At least the way I use it. See attached.

Either way, I would keep the Clips Fader at 0dB as it appears to be AFTER any clip FX.

I find the Faders for Clip, Track, and Output to be confusing and dangerous so I just keep them locked and at 0dB. If they’re not locked, it’s too easy for an accidental change even from accidental mouse scrolls.

And PG thankfully added ability to fully hide them in 11.1

Keep them locked and hidden, and there are better and safer places to adjust the gain in my opinion.

Before meta

After meta

Strange, maybe it’s due to your specific settings but when I run the MetaNormalizer, the Clip Fader stays at 0dB, and the Clip loudness is adjusted in the Clips Tab and as “Pre-FX”, and there is also an option to have it be post-FX.

Maybe PG knows why your Clip Fader is moving when you use the MetaNormalizer but I’ve never seen it happen.

For me is applying post gain, how can i change the meta do adjust pre gain ?

I honestly have no idea. For me, with the attached settings, the gain change occurs in the Clips Tab (not the Inspector). My Clip Tab Fader always stays at 0dB. I even tested it unlocked and it still doesn’t move.

I think PG may have to weigh in as maybe there is a hidden setting or discrepancy.

It seems that you need to check the “Exclude Audio Montage Effects” box for it to work like I am describing.

I honestly never knew the Clip Fader and “Post FX” clip value in the Clips Tab were the same thing.

I wouldn’t expect that setting to have an effect on this but apparently it does.

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Damn! Thats it!

It could be labeled Exclude Audio montage Effects (pre gain)

The wording is certainly confusing. I never really noticed it because I always just use my preset which has that box checked.

I guess it’s good you provided the screen shots because based off the original post, it would have been hard to find the issue. Screen shots are almost always helpful as there are many ways to do and interpret things in WaveLab.

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Thanks for your help Justin.

The wording is indeed confusing, but there is logic. Indeed, if the meta-normalizer includes the plugins, changing the gain before the plugins could easily result in inaccurate results, as the plugin could change the level.

I guess I would expect to see “Pre Clip FX” and “Post Clip FX” wording here in instead.

“Exclude Audio Montage Effects” makes me think that with this option OFF, the clips will be normalized at the source, but with it ON, the normalization will pass through ALL the inserted plugins somehow.

Maybe changing it to “Pre Clip FX” or “Post Clip FX” would be more clear wording.

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And FWIW, this isn’t the first time I had to help somebody figure out why the Meta Normalizer is changing the Clip Gain Post Effects instead of Pre Effects.

I just never noticed that the Post Effects Clip Gain in the Clips Tab is the same as the Gain Slider in the Inspector.

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