Combined single note dynamics with hairpins?

This is my first post here, so first thanks to the Dorico developers!

Is it already possible to have a combination of hairpins and dynamic symbols (immediate dynamics) to a single note, e.g., something like

or even ppppp under a single note?

Thanks!

Best,
Torsten

Yes, it should be (not in front of Dorico right now).

Go to write mode, select the note, press Shift+D, enter ppppp, press the return key.

Alternatively, with steptime input:
Write mode, Shift+N or double click a position to start note input, Shift+D, ppppp, return key, then enter a note with (optionally) duration, then pitch.

for instance:
DOR-Dyns.png

I tried both adding dynamics with Shift-D to an existing note and during step-time input. In both cases the symbols are distributed across notes, one static marker per note.

fratveno: How did you create your example? Is there perhaps some setting in Preferences or elsewhere that I would need to change?

Thanks!

Torsten

Did you type them all into the same popover? If you type “ppppp” before you hit Space or Return to close the popover, you should find all of the dynamics created with the duration of the current note.

Yes, always using the same popover.

I just played around with it a bit more, it seems to depend on the note value how many dynamic symbols are allowed per note. For example, with a quarter note (crotchet) only a single symbol seems possible, but with a longer note value (e.g., a whole note, semibreve) it can be two if it is followed by another note, but three if it is followed by a rest. Also, some hairpins are omitted in some cases. E.g., with a whole note followed by a rest, when entering pp, then the second hairpin is not shown, but both p and the f are associated with the single note.

I understand that in many situations you only want one dynamics symbol per note, and therefore the default behaviour that multiple symbols are distributed over multiple notes is appropriate for many users, but it should in principle also be possible to control which symbol is added to which note, or even better, at which rhythmic position.

Could someone please confirm whether you can enter, e.g., a short note value with more than a single dynamics indication such as the attached example?
Hosokawa-VerticalSong-excerpt.jpg
Here is an even more challenging note from the same piece, which requires controlling the rhythmic position of dynamic symbols under a rather short note (the overall tempo is very slow).
Hosokawa-VerticalSong-excerpt2.jpg
Am I perhaps missing something here?

Thanks!

Best,
Torsten

Yes, I do understand what you mean. With a long string of dynamics on a short note value it isn’t always obvious. But it is possible, and feels Ok when you get used to it.

In this example I had to do it like this:

  1. first make sure the Grid is at minimum. (16 notes) In Write mode it’s the tiny note bottom left.
  2. select the note and activate the caret for input.
  3. invoke the popover and type sf> and ENTER - nothing happens, fine
  4. Move the caret with the Right-arrow till the next proper position, invoke the popover again and
  5. type pp< and hit ENTER. Again move caret right and invoke popover and type mf> ENTER
  6. move caret to first note in next bar, invoke popover and type p ENTER.
    you can end the whole procedure at any time by typing a question mark…
    DOR-Dyns2.png

Brilliant – thanks a lot to you, fratveno, and to the Dorico team :slight_smile:

Best,
Torsten

Some quick feedback to Dorico developers after using such dynamics for some time now: it works in principle, but if there is only little space then hairpins tend to be omitted. This can happen in particular when using combined dynamics such as ppp on a single note with hairpins like pppppp. Instead, it would be better if Dorico would adapt the spacing so that there is enough space to show all hairpins. Sometimes, Dorico does make more space, but sometimes not, and so far I could not find out consistently the reason why sometimes it would not work.

Also, I was not able to to generate something like the following on a single note: . I wanted to have al/dal niente hairpins, but was not able to enter dynamics on a single note that started with a hairpin.

Anyway, for a first version it is great that so many things work already :slight_smile:

Best,
Torsten

I don’t know whether it’s by accident or design, but if you use the procedure I outined above it works fine. See attached.
You have to type the question mark where you want the closing hairpin to end. Then everything appears and D. adjusts the spacing.
DorDyns3.png

You have to type the question mark where you want the closing hairpin to end.

Ah, I see. I could now do this as well, so the problem might be sitting before the computer :slight_smile:

Thanks for coming back again!

Best,
Torsten

I haven’t experimented with this myself, but it seems very strange if Dorico decides to omit things that the user has put in - if there’s not enough space, the bar must just get longer. Without any workarounds needed. Just as if you fill it with lots of short notes instead of longer ones…
Is this expected behavior?

The hairpins aren’t omitted in as much as they have been created correctly, but when they are going to end up shorter than a certain threshold, then they don’t get drawn. The idea is that Dorico should create sufficient space for the hairpin to be drawn, but in certain very tight circumstances this doesn’t happen, which is a problem that we will eventually correct. For now, I would suggest you loosen the spacing by inserting a system break to allow the dynamics more room; in the forthcoming update you will be able to apply a local spacing adjustment rather than changing the casting off in order to handle this situation.

I have to say there are loads of these brief glimpses of the future scattered around various threads on the forum. I’m sure I can speak for everyone here in stating that we are exceedingly excited for the upcoming update! :stuck_out_tongue: