Concerned about Nuendo 7 after using Cubase 8

Hi

I’ve been battling with Cubase 8 on and off over the last few weeks, trying to get it to run reliably on my system so that I can make use of some of its new (albeit for me personally non-essential) features.

My experience has left me concerned about Nuendo 7. Obiovulsy my experiences are not universal, but there are other users who have given up on Cubase 8 and reverted to 7.5, and I can’t help feeling that some of the changes Steinberg have made may cause problems for many users for some time to come, especially now that Nuendo 7 is (seemingly) imminent.

First up, Cubase 7.5 and Nuendo 6.5 are both rock solid on my system. I use them (in fact mainly Nuendo ATM) for 12-14 hours a day, 5-6 days a week for primarily composition and editing work.

The main issues I see with Cubase 8 (and potentially, by extension, with Nuendo 7) are:

  1. Windows Aero: If you want to use Windows Classic mode you can’t. Cubase 8 requires you to use an Aero theme, becuase of the new window mangement features it introduces. Personally I find Aero looks dreadful, fonts are less clear etc. That said, it’s probably worth putting up with this and the extra system load (margnial though it may be) for better window management. Problem is, the new window management in my experience is really clunky, causes more problems than it solves and ocassionally renders Cubase unusable (for me personally - you see, I’m learning Fredo!). Specifically, when I started using Cubase 8.0 the menu bar would regularly not appear at all. Sometimes it would be on one monitor, then on another, then it would just vanish and I’d have to try and use kbd shortcuts to do anything. Other times, my task bar would disappear and not return, forcing me to forcibly shut and reopen explorer. Often I would just see a white strip where my menu bar shoud be, and the menu items would appear, but only if I moved my mouse over them. Admittedly, things are better in 8.0.5 (the latest maintenance release) but I’ve still had instances where Cubase has become totally unresponsive, because the Devices window was open, but it also wouldn’t respond to mouse activity. I only managed to return to normal operation my using the escape or enter key to shut the front-most window.

  2. At the moment (I had a session with Cubase 8 yesterday), trying to open my audio driver control panel (MOTU PCIe-424) from within Device Setup cause Cubase to hang or become unresponsive pretty much every time. Plain as.

  3. Often (on my system) Cubase 8 hangs during launch saying it is ‘Initializing Video File Handling’. No way to circumvent this. Just force quit or restart and try again.

  4. Moving from 1 window to another window within Cubase causes audio to dropout for around 2-3 seconds every time. I have been told that there may be a setting which fixes this, but because of the issues above I’ve not been able to get far enough into a session to actually try the fix. Again, this is presumably related to the way window management is now implemented: instead of everything sitting within a ‘master’ Cubase/Nuendo window, you can now have lots of orphan windows located wherever you want, outside the main Cubase/Nuendo environment - a bit like Logic on Mac.

Admittedly, because of these frustrations and the fact that I have to work, I have not spent more than a total of maybe 8 hours working with Cubase 8. But when the intial experience is problematic, and there’s a perfectly good current version which is completely dependable, there’s little incentive to persist unless you really have to. These are very basic functions, not sophisticated and specialised sync or post-pro specific functions, which (in my case) are causing serious problems.

I very much hope Steinberg are aware of these issues and, as has often happened in the past, Nuendo gets a load of extra QA time and energy, because if my personal experiences with Cubase 8 are anything to go by, it’s really going to need it.

Sorry for the somewhat negative post. I’m genuinely excited about the evolution of Nuendo and very much committed to this platform, but working with Cubase 8 has shaken my faith just a little.

Jules

It´s always the same with new versions and there is no difference to other developers. x.0 Release versions have issues.

Since SB sadly has no open betas for new versions, this evolution (a.k.a. fixing) can only happen during the release cycle.

I´ve personally only once gone back to a previous version, that was from N4 to N3. N4 really had major issues, with no workarounds that solved the multiple problems I encountered. Looking back I can say N4 was nothing but trouble and I wish I had skipped it. N5 was solid for me, as well as N5.5, 6.0 and 6.5.

But N4 is long forgotten and I think SB is sill awesome, as I use their software every day and it does all that I need.
Well, I have to admit I´m a bit of a Steinberg fanboy :smiley:

For me it’s the exact opposite: After seeing what that have done with Cubase Pro, I believe that they are on the right track. Other DAW manufacturers have not been very busy working on their platform, but Steinberg keeps on delivering stuff that is actually relevant to users.
I guess 7.0 will be no exception.

Ollie

Yeah. I must admit the hover stuff annoys me a bit as well, I would rather do without that again, but otherwise I too am a great fan, and can compare with other systems, e.g. ProTools which until today still doesn’t have R-128 measurement built in, etc. etc.
And I have absolutely no opinion regarding Aero.
I switched it on because Cubase 8 said I should, it looks a little different, sure, but nothing I can’t live with, after all the computer’s there to work with not to win an art prize. And I have noticed absolutely no adverse effects on system performance on my standard issue Z800 since. On the contrary: I’ve seen a noticeable rise in performance compared to Cubase 7.
So all in all I must say: Well done, Steiny, and bring on the 7… :slight_smile:

Thanks for the feedback guys.

So you are all using Cubase Pro 8 and it’s running great for you, is that right?

I’m very happy with Steinberg moving their products forward, and many of the ideas they have are great. And I totally agree that they are continuing to evolve whilst other platfroms are starting to stagnate (I use ProTools 11 HD for mixing and PT12 seems to be entirely based around collaboration and marketing - no actual new DAW features of major significance that I’m seeing at all). I just want things to work reliably and not be rushed out the door.

Anyway, if Cubase Pro 8 is working great for you all, then I guess it’s just me. It’s certainly not happy on my machine, and I just don’t want Nuendo 7 deliver the same experience.

Jules

FWIW, moving to Aero was a smart move, 'cause, as a benefit it puts much less strain on the CPU and it gives better GUI. But there are other reaons; one is Windows 8.1, which doesn’t allow old GDI apps.


Fredo

Are you sure about that ?

It seems to me that the real reason is :

(from : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graphics_Device_Interface#Limitations )

“In Windows 8 and 8.1, forced logoffs occur as a result of GDI capacity overflow instead of a hard reboot.”


Anyway the GDI interface is legacy, it is certainly better to use Direct2D and Direct3D as soon as the video card driver is rock solid.

From Microsoft :

https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/ff729480(v=vs.85).aspx

Another advantage of using Direct2D is that most of the driver code is in user mode. This mean that if an overflow or error occur, the system does not need to be rebooted.

well I am using C8 and N6.5 - recording usually still in N6.5 because I know all the issues and in the same time it is rocksolid… Mixing in C8 - for some reasons I am having less issues here than in N6.5, even in 500 track projects… I would even say ZERO issues… But no excessive lanes/group editing stuff here, just mixing, using some basic event editing, automation and of course truckloads of plugins…

I really hope that N7 will be “Cubase 8 but with the Nuendo features and a lot more” - because I am missing some Nuendo only features (though I am a music producer/mixer)…

I have to say that I installed C8 completely from scratch - that means, I only transfered Key Commands from former installed versions…

Oh, and moving to Aero was - first - something which I hated - but after I did it I do not want to look back. You are able to tweak the design in a quite acceptable way - and I realized a way smoother GUI and overall workflow, everything seems to work smother in some way… even a couple of strange issues (strange glitches with East West Play) disappeared all of a sudden…

I have to say I am still in C8.00 - I was fearing to change anything because everything is running so well :wink:

have to add something… there are so many “issues” in N and C which are “design”… I am not talking about bugs, I am talking about workflow-killers regarding the mixing desk etc… I was dissapointed that almost nothing was changed in C8 - ok - some things improved… I can do my work, the application itself is great, I lost hopes that Steinberg will listen to the users one day making that application even better :slight_smile:

By way of an update, I spent another day with Cubase 8 today, desperately trying to migrate across from Nuendo 6.5.

Yet again, I hit massive issues with the new audio engine which totally stopped me in my tracks. Specifically, as I was setting up my template, the audio engine would stop working altogether - the VST performance meter (the green one) would disappear completely, which basically seems to indicate that the audio engine has died. Despite Cubase receiving MIDI, VST instruments would not respond at all etc.

I tried to kick start the audio engine by resetting audio driver settings (buffer size, asio guard settings etc) in the hope this might bring the audio engine back to life, but I could find nothing within Cubase that could get things working again. Every time I was forced to shut Cubase down, and restart it. On a number of occasions Cubase hung whilst I was changing Device settings and had to be forcibly quit. This happened 5 times, just whilst setting up MIDI ports for VSTi tracks.

I never got as far as actually being able to work with Cubase 8. This is the third time I’ve tried to move across from Nuendo 6.5 and every time I’ve had to give up defeated. Naturally I’m not happy about shelling out for an upgrade I can’t use, but I’m more concerned about what happens when Nuendo 7 arrives with this same engine.

I have contacted Steinberg tech support each time I’ve had issues with Cubase 8, and each time I have either heard nothing at all, or have received a response so late as to be pretty much pointless. My last support request was sent on 26th February, and responded to on the 20th March !! Furthermore, the response suggested I download the latest Cubase update and try a different audio driver.

I’ve written to tech support again today, but now hold little hope that I’ll receive any kind of meaningful response within any kind of meaningful timeframe.

I love Nuendo and Cubase (pre version 8), but the issues with Cubase 8 and the level of support offered to professional composers relying on these products day in, day out to make a living, is simply not good enough.

Rant over.

Jules

There are no issues with C8, you might have issues with your system? What’s your audio device?

That’s a fairly sweeping statement Raphie.

Audio device is MOTU PCIe424 as per my sig. It’s an older device obviously, but has very mature drivers as a result and works flawlessly with Cubase 7.5 and Nuendo 6.5.

Thanks for your help.

Jules

I’m sorry, but I am on the same line.
The audio engine hasn’t changed between these versions, and there have been no reports whatsoever (except you) that there is a problem with C8.

There must be a setting that is set different, because it is not possible that Cubase 7 and Nuendo 6 work fine, while Cubase 8 causes troubles. Instead of trying to lad a template, just try with an empty project and build that up gradually. See what happens and when.


Fredo

Indeed something must have changed, is the Motu USB? By accident connected to a USB3 port now? Other USB devices added on the same USB ROOT HUB? Your problems sound like a stack overflow, this is 99% interupt or memory leak driven, worst case your system or memory is dying
Did you try a clean fresh install of windows ONLY using the drivers provided by windows update, not using any other mainboard or peripherals or video drivers? C8 on win7 or Win8 default install, is a proven stable platform.
Either something 3rd PTY is messing it up, or there is a hardware conflict/error

Fredo, Raphie

I appreciate your responses - thank you.

Next time I have a couple of days free (!!) I’ll do a clean install of Windows and all my plugins and other applications etc. I appreciate the suggestion, but that’s a case of last resorts, and when Nuendo 6.5 and Cubase 7.5 work perfectly, I personally don’t feel it’s pointing at a wider system issue.

I’m sorry to disagree, but let’s boil it down. If this was your system and you tested Nuendo 6.5 12 hours a day for months and it never creaked, and then you did the same with Cubase 7.5 with the same results, and then you installed Cubase 8 and tried to run similar templates and it immediately threw up issues - would you really believe there was a hardware issue? The logic just doesn’t follow. Does Cubase generate logs at all that I could send to one of the devs Fredo?

I can try and rebuild my template from scratch in Cubase 8, but at 1400 tracks, that again is probably about 4 days work, so I’ll have to just test when I’m able.

I promise - I want to like and use Cubase 8. I want the GUI and other workflow benefits it offers, which is why I keep going back and giving it another try. I’m not a troll and I don’t look for problems where none exist, but I have a system built by a pro audio specialist, dedicated to running Nuendo/Cubase, with the best spec I could find, and moving from N6 and C7 to C8 consistently throws up a whole myriad of issues.

Maybe my system just doesn’t like Aero …?

Thanks again for your input - I do genuinely appreciate it, but I obviously can’t just accept at face value that there can’t possibly be anything wrong with Cubase 8 and it must therefore be my system, when all mys tests suggest the exact opposite.

Jules

Did you already trash the c8 pro preferences folder, there have been multiple reports of imported 7 settings causing havoc

I have mentioned this in several posts and even its own thread, that templates built in previous versions of Cubase or Nuendo cause audio problems in Cubase 8. Cubase 8 works just fine and without audio errors with templates that were RE-built from scratch in Cubase 8. For any older projects that I want to open in C8, I have to save track archives in the older version on start a NEW project in C8 and import those archives.
As Fredo suggests, I would start with a new template in C8 and see how that goes.
I too am VERY concerned about Nuendo 7 as well because of this.

Yes, of course. I’ve tried with trahsed prefs and imported prefs from Nuendo. The results were pretty much the same.

That’s interesting. Personally I don’t see why an imported track archive would make any difference - in my experience it recreates the exact same song as any blank template you exported the track archive from (unlike with Logic, where you would often get project corruption and track/environment exports/imports cleaned things up - this doesn’t seem to happen with Cubendo), but I’m willing to give it a go. If I have to rebuild everything from scratch that’s a slightly different proposition, and will have to wait until I have a chunk of time free, which won’t be in the forseeable future.

After yesterday’s experiences and the realisation that I’m unlikely to find a solution here or elsewhere I’ve decided to just stick with N 6.5 for now and not worry about the upgrade to C8. I also won’t be buying the Nuendo 7 upgrade on release, despite usually behaving like an impatient child when DAW upgrades come out. For once I’ll sit tight and wait until I have the opportunity to test properly before making any kind of commitment.

At the back of my mind I suspect Aero may be part of the problem. Maybe it doesn’t like my graphics card. I had a lot of GUI issues when C8 first came out. Mind you at the time, everyone said they were nothing to do with Cubase 8 either, and sure enough they’ve all now been fixed with 8.0.10. Which makes me feel there may still be things going on under the hood, but I realize nobody will agree with that.

Thanks again for all the help.

Jules

as mentioned before - C8 is very solid here, I am not talking about all those small bugs and glitches - I am talking about overall performance and stability. My current project uses 20GB ram (lots of EastWest VSTis etc),300 tracks, truckloads of plugins and pushes the CPU meter in Cubase to the red light - in oder versions this would give me dropouts /crackle - not in C8 (audio guard activated) - well, this project needs 15 min to load in the morning, and I never had a single crash in 2 weeks.

And I currently still recording in Nuendo 6.5 - opening the cleaned up projects in C8 for mixing. No problem!
No need for track archive transfer etc here…

I took the time to set up all the prefs and templates (I have only a few - as I do not use templates very much) from scratch… My system is quite messy - multiple versions of Nuendo (64 and 32 bit) and Cubase …

Since I activated Aero my performance increased even in N6.5. I am not using that glass-transparency though.

In C8 I have quite some random GUI issues, mostly regarding the menu bars etc which are not displayed properly all the time - but none of them affects stability or the audio part in any way.

So most likely there is just something strange going on, maybe a bad plugin? I had crashes recently when closing the Drum-Editor, but all I had to do was updating jBridge and all was well.

Though I am quite happy with C8 I have high hopes for N7 because I prefer the Nuendo Events GUI as well as I really miss some Nuendo only features, even when only doing audio/music stuff…

Brandy, PC or Mac?