I didn’t know this tune—thanks. I also sometimes think of that harmony as Dma7|Cmaj7, but I hear the Bud Powell thing differently than how I interpret #15, only because of the registration. For me the Bud Powell example really “feels” more flat-9 for me. I mean, obviously, this is pretty subjective! But it’s funny how hard it is to put labels on these very subtle harmonic things.
Now I need to go listen to that album . . .
It’s really great! Sonny Rollins was only 18 years old when he recorded on Bouncin’ with Bud and Wail off of this.
…which links this very Bud tune to Bergonzi and shows Max Roach’s great 5/8 (or 5/4, if you prefer) bell pattern):
Eh, that dude got close, but that’s not quite it. I hear it as this:
Max’s thing is some sort of triplet thing playing between the cymbal crown and the snare. I used to play in Charli Persip’s band and I remember him talking about it and demonstrating it as Max showed it to him, but can’t recall exactly how 'Sip explained it.
My disagreement is that ♯15 is attempting to describe it as one chord when it neither sounds nor behaves as one. It’s a polychord.
Not that I can stop anyone from writing this way; just that I wanted to state my view.
Just went back to listen and slowed it down. I think you nailed it! Not a tuplet at all.
That’s how I hear it too.
What I always wonder. Did he make this groove with just a sound in his head? Or did he know that an 3-2 cascara rythm has also an 5+5+6 subdivision.
From salsa perspective it is a kind of fake latin groove, but it is just beautifull.
I personally would never underestimate what Max knew (or, of course, what he heard and imagined)!
(I hope you don’t mind too much our “hijacking” the thread, @Remi_Bolduc! This sometimes happens here.)
No idea, but he plays something completely different on the alternate take:
On that one, if thinking 2-3, he plays the 2 side of the cascara but then doesn’t play what I think of as the 3 side. Of course, the melody is literally the 3 side of the clave in 3-2. Maybe he thought what he played on the first take wasn’t working (cross-clave) and came up with what was on the released take.
Dizzy had recorded Manteca a couple of years earlier, so Mario Bauza, Chico O’Farrill, Chano Pozo, etc, were all clearly hanging out with these guys. Max certainly must have been exposed to those rhythms.
Wow I never heard this one, Thanks. Funny this is more common and clearly 2-3 clave while the other pattern is to me more 3-2. The other version is more special to me. More an African beat than Latin. The beauty of that period is that things are not set so clearly.
It is not carscara but clearly the 3 side of the clave. An quiet common bell pattern.
lol. Not at all. I enjoy it !!
@FredGUnn this conversation helped me to understand Max Roachs groove.
I see it now like this. Max nows exactly what he is doing. When I was having diner a suddenly saw I have to look to the sticking. The sticking feels so normal in my hands. When you bring all the right hand notes to the cowbell you get this.
I only changed te sticking of the last 4 eight notes. But you can not hear that because they are all on the snare. I asume now that it is this. Because when you start on the seventh eight note of the second bar you have a 3-2 cascara pattern. So to me it is essentially an displaced cascara pattern.
That is how I hear it also. It seems to me that the argument here is that Dorico should allow users to give birth to any arbitrary chord name, even if this chord only exists one place in the entire universe, or is only advocated by one composer.
If the musical minds at Dorico can come up with a way to support chord extensibility without disrupting or unnecessarily complicating the lives of the 99.9% of the users whose needs are already covered by the existing chord capabilities, what’s not to like?
I would say that we’ve long passed by the feature-request portion of this thread (of which the Dorico team has taken note, you can be certain) and we’re into one of the many discussions and debates that emerge among the curious minds here in the forum.
Your niche requirements are no more (nor less) important than mine. A feature will arrive when it arrives. Hectoring will not further your cause.
We are all free to use the app that suits us best, but none is perfect.
Please rest assured that we are completely aware of users’ desire to create their own types of chord symbols, and to be able to define appearances for chord symbols that can be applied to any root note.
