Cubase 12 ONLY - Drop outs in Kontakt when more than 4 librarys playing

Hi silhouette

Yeah I have Multicore support unchecked.
I’m aware of the issues with Kontakt for some users but I find V6 has been very stable for me.

I know it is a Cubase Pro 12 issue because as I said in my original post, the same 10 library multi has no issues in Cubase Pro 11 (or Pro 10).

Exactly and the vst3 standard is Steinbergs own technology, they invented it.

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Are you getting different results with the same project between Cubase 11 and 12, or just the same Kontakt multi, used in different projects? (I don’t know if you can open a Cubase 12 project in 11, but you can go the other way around.)

Also, have you confirmed that both Cubase versions have the same settings in Studio Setup > Audio System? Specifically, Processing precision, ASIO-Guard Level and Audio Priority? (I am assuming you’re also running at the same sample rate/buffer size on the same audio interface between Cubase versions, as that would obviously influence performance.)

I am still only doing serious work in Cubase 11- just experimenting in Cubase 12 until at least one more patch comes out- but so far I haven’t noticed any project that plays well in 11 not performing the same in 12. I’ve got one Cubase 11 project that really does push my PC to its limits; had to freeze some tracks in order to complete the mix. Might give that a try on 12… although I’m not using Kontakt- it’s mostly audio tracks with a TON of FX plugs.

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Hi Ultimate Outsider
Yeah different results. In cubase 11 Pro the multi plays perfectly, and it did so in Cubase 8 and 9, it only now has issues in Cubase Pro 12.

It also does not cause any issues in Ableton Live, Studio One 5 or Pro Tools.

I always work in 48.000 KHz
24 Bit wav
with a mixture of stereo and mono as the project requires.
My normal Audio Interface Buffer Size is 1024 Samples so nothing taxing.

In BOTH Cubase 11 & 12 I have the same Advanced Options under Studio Setup.
Processing Precision
32 bit float
Active Milti processing Checked
Active ASIO-Guard Checked
ASIO-Guard Level normal

Audio Priority Normal
I do not use Steinbergs Audio Power Scheme as we have our own “high power” Scheme thats tweaked specificlly for each machine.

I will explain my testing…
In Kontakt 6 multicore is unckecked and the Instrument buffer size is 120.00 kb.

I have my own standard strings multi that I use as a starting point when ever I need a string section which I have used for a number of years. It consists of 10 Spitefire audio librarys made up of 5 x Studio Chamber Orchestra and 5 x Studio Strings.

Each library only plays one articulation so no library is playing more than one voice (or melody line) and in total it would have just 10 voices in total max.

I load the same Kontakt version in all DAWs and then I open my saved multi in Kontakt. I have used this string multi on countless tracks, often in a busy project loaded with 30+ tracks and 4 or 5 plugins per track and there have never been any issues.

My Audio interface has not changed between Cubase Pro 11 and Pro 12, it is a steinberg UR22-C with the firmware and Yamaha drivers always kept up to date.

As soon as this issue started, I created a new blank project in Cubase Pro 12 (so that I could eliminate plugs-ins and other Softsynths) and loaded the same simple midi file on the Kontakt instrument with basic Dynamics, Expression and Vibrato automation also written in the midi file.

Even a very basic laptop or computer should be able to play this back using just the motherboard sound drivers and for the UR22-C it should not even notice it.

I then unmuted each library track, one at a time, starting with the Violins, then Violas, then Celli, then Bass.

If I unmute any combination of four tracks it plays perfectly, as soon as I unmute a 5th the audio dropouts starts.

So I then set my Audio interface Buffer Size to its max (2048 Samples) and tried again but the same audio droputs happens as soon as I unmute a 5th track.

So I put the Audio interface Buffer Size back to 1024 Samples, and inside Kontakt I set its Preload Buffer to max, and tried again but that made no difference.

I then left Kontakts buffer at Max, and the set my audio interface at max and tried again but the audio dropouts are still there.

By reason of deduction the issue must be Cubase Pro 12.

If it was either my Audio Interface or Kontakt (or its settings) then the issue should be reproduced at least in Cubase 11.

Just to be sure, in Cubase pro 11 I opened my last project created in it which has:
12 Stereo audio files
3 Mono audio files
37 tracks of MIDI (not all playing at the same time)
Multiple sub bus’s
8 master groups

Some of the softsynths are CPU hogs like Omnisphere.

Most tracks have 3 - 5 plugins and some have 6 - 6.
My most used plugins mainly consist of Waves, Fab Filter, SSL, Oeksound, Cytomic, Arturia FX, Slate Digital, TC Electronic, Sound Toys, Antares, Valhalla DSP, Liquid Sonics, Izotope, IK Multimedia, Celemony and I some times use Air and the odd Eventide plug-in.

None of these plug-ins, or any of my softsynths, have ever caused any issues, If one did it would be uninstalled and off the machine.

Like you I am still using Pro 11 in all of our machines but I am damn angry that having paid for pro 12 and there has been a maintenace update the problems still exist yet instead of fixing them Steinberg was busy adding Dolby Atmos for music, along with “long-requested” functionalities which should have been part of Pro 12 from the start.

Maintenace releases are for fixing issues not adding new features.

Thats like adding bling to a car instead of fixing engine issues.

PS. Forgot to add that I am not using 3D or any advanced video settings on any of our machines…

All are purely DAW only so no games, internet or software otther than DAW and plug-ins/softsynths.

All systems are very well cooled, and the laptop with the issue, none of the CPU cores go above 80 degrees which is well inside the acceptable temps for the i7 in this machine.

No cracked software allowed period, all of our applications are fully legit, no shareware or trial software.

The laptop has two Samsung 970 Evo plus NVM SSD’s both are 14 months old, both tested for impending failure this morning by our tech guy and both given Good Health no issues with the hardware.

I really have nailed it down to best of my knowledge to it being Cubase Pro 12.

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You have me convinced!

I am wondering whether there is a fundamental difference between Cubase 11/12 in terms of multithreading & resource distribution, or whether there’s an issue specific to Kontakt at play.

This: [quote=“KennyEastMids, post:6, topic:782064”]
Your comment that “This is a software engineering question” is only part right, it is a consummer question. A supplier and customer question. I was sold something that does not work as expected, finding the cure is a a software engineering question, thats Steinbergs job, thats is their legal responsability.
[/quote]

And this:

I’ve written similar sentiments on this forum. And since then the Steinberg employees and mods have decided to ignore my very specific request for assistance, for one week or more, with multiple entreaties for help ( Current (Updated?) Official Steinberg detailed instructions for Upgrade from C11 to C12.0.10 (Grace) - #6 by alexis )

The official Steinberg responses/non- responses in these and other threads is a horrible look for new and prospective purchasers of Cubase/Steinberg products IMO. It’s also distressing for established users to see how Steinberg employees and mods treat their customers.

It also has the strong appearance of a major ethical lapse on the part of Steinberg employees and mods who help on this forum, in the form of retaliation against users (paid user for going on 20 years for my part) who believe, insist, and write that Steinberg is responsible for keeping their word: "if you give us money, we promise to deliver the product as described in our extensive marketing".

Please note: I am not definitively saying there is ongoing retaliation. Appearances can be deceiving. In that case I believe it is simply rude for Steinberg employees and mods to not respond at all to user requests for help such as mine, when they are fully able to.

My writing my feelings on this won’t change any behavior I’m guessing, but I’m not used to being treated this way by people I contract with to deliver goods and services, and I’ll speak out on this in any way that is within the forum rules.

Cubase is vey impressive software that I happen to use. That doesn’t give Steinberg reps and mods the liberty to act inappropriately, IMO.

Over.

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My belief is that there is something different about Cubase 12, the Devs have been tinkering or too busy adding flashy new tinsel rather than inproving the basic program.

More toys, bell and whistles = more sales

Its like, make it shiny, put it out and ignore customers complaints and it says it all when steinbergs devs do not spend meaningful time in the forum providing tech support for THEIR program and what staff and reps (incl forum reps) do come in here are rude and unhelpful.

Completely agree and same here, 20 years as a paying user and never have I felt more unvalued, disrespected and looked down upon as I do now.

Its darn good job that I am not going to NAMM because if I was and if Steinberg had a stand, they would have had a very angry visit from me.

I think the change happened when the new owner took over, the regional Tech support was closed, the friendly relationship with customers (I knew some of the UK tech support guys by first name) trashed and the money men accountants took over.

There is a lot more I could say but I wont as I am getting angry again.

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So yet another wasted afternoon testing and I have ruled out the proplem being the Spitfire Librarys.

The dropouts happen no matter what 10 librarys I load in Kontakt. 4 will play perfectly and unmuting a fifth causes the issue. The fifth can be any library or articulation, it is not library specific.

HEY STIENBERG How about some help?

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I even messaged Matthias_Quellmann days ago to ask if he could get my support ticket looked at and he has not even bothered to reply.

This is APPAULING treatment of loyal paying customers…

Yes, that’s right. You messaged me on Sunday morning 2am and I didn’t respond immediately. I hope that this is understandable. But I am always happy to help, as long as we keep the conversation respectful and constructive. I will also try to answer here instead of the PM. Maybe some others users have the same issue.

It’s unusual that you didn’t receive an answer to our support ticket. I don’t have access to the support ticket system since I’m not a support agent, but I’ll check with the team. There is still a phone support available in the UK. You can find the number here: https://helpcenter.steinberg.de/hc/en-us/articles/206530864-Contact-support

We have created a dedicated thread for performance issues like this and our team has been very active to communicate with the customers in that thread. We didn’t had this one on the radar. Usually when there are performance issues that happen in a new generation, but the previous Cubase generation doesn’t have those problems, we ask the users to generate traces in both generations for comparison. There have been reports about performance issues with Kontakt, but those were only on Mac OS Rosetta.

It would be great to get some more information. Could you please sent me the plug-in reports from within Cubase 12 and Cubase 11 so that the team can have a look at your system configurations? The report also includes CPU details and other more, that’s why I’m asking.

Your comment about your custom power scheme is the only thing that is kind of unusual so far. Could you please just try once to activate the Steinberg Power Scheme to check if that changes anything?

We are already working on the next maintenance update, that should bring some performances improvements (no new features. Just fixes.), but I can’t tell at this stage if your issue will be fixed. Let me talk to the team.

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Hi Matthias, yes answering here is a good idea so that it could help others.

I can confirm that using the Steinberg power Scheme makes no difference.

More than happy to provide plugin reports, how do I generate those for you?

Open the same project in Cubase 11 and Cubase 12 and go to the plug-in manager. You can create and save the report at the bottom of that page. Zip both reports and sent it to me in a PM.

@KennyEastMids , just to make sure, you have already updated to 12.0.20, haven’t you?

Please let me add a general comment about the way things are expressed sometimes: I think it is highly understandable that a person who stumbles into problems with a piece of software that did not exist before for seemingly no good reason is somewhat emotional and maybe not chosing the right tone in the first place. Professional support is to a high degree about being able to manage and deescalate these situations (instead of pouring “oil into the fire” by posting more or less equally emotional replies. I have made the mistake of being too emotional in some situations repeatedly - and it will for sure happen again - what I/and others! need then is support. Respectful support. sometimes a little hint like “please let us focus on the issue you have and switch to a respectful tone”. Me personally - I profit/benefit from such reactions in cases where I maybe was too emotional.

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I’m trying to reproduce your issue in Cubase 12.0.0 and 12.0.20, you didn’t specify which articulations you have on your multi, so here’s what I did:

5x Kontakt 6.7.1 tracks (vln1, vln2, vla, cello, bass) each containing one SF Chamber Strings Performance Legato.
5x Kontakt 6.7.1 tracks (vln1, vln2, vla, cello, bass) each containing one SF Studio Strings Performance Legato.
*I chose the Performance Legatos because they are the most CPU intensive patches.

All tracks play just fine, my CPU barely hit 10%. I wrote a very busy passage and random CC1/CC2/CC11 data, and made sure all tracks were playing during the test.

Here are my settings:

Cubase
32 bit float
Multi Processing CHECKED
ASIO-Guard CHECKED
ASIO-Guard Level Normal
Audio Priority Boost

Kontakt
Multiprocessing 8 Cores
Preload size 24kb

Windows 11 21H2, i7 11th gen, samples hosted on SATA SSD, MOTU Ultralite AVB, 256 buffer size.
I also tested on my Windows 10 computer, it’s an old FX8350, Focusrite Scarlett 2i2 3rd gen, 256 buffer size. CPU sits around 35% while playing.

I have Kontakt set to use all cores on both computers, even with Multi Processing enabled in Cubase. That’s what work best for my particular setup.

If you want, please attach the MIDI file and articulations used (you can write that on each track name) and I’ll give it a try.

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@zolhof Thank you for your support! Appreciated!

@KennyEastMids Is there anything else in your setup that you didn’t mention so far? Do you use any plug-ins in the Control Room or on the Main Bus?

Do the dropouts also happen when no track is selected (and no track is processed in real-time)?

Have you tried to backup and delete your preferences and then start Cubase? Ideally both, Cubase 11 and Cubase 12, preferences folder.

Do you insert Kontakt as a Rack Instrument or an Instrument Track?

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Yes I upgraded on the day it was released.

Hi zolhof

Thank you for trying to help, it is really appreciated.

I have been in and out of a clients recording session all afternoon and this evening so I have only just got the chance to reply.

I can confirm that the articulations you have used are the ones I used except I used except I was using standard legato (not performance) to save on CPU but so that we are both using the same I will do the following tonight.

I will create a new blank project in Cubase pro 12 with the same settings as you.
I will add one instance of Kontakt as a Track Instrument, and one instance as a Rack Instrument.

In to each Kontakt I will then load -
5x Kontakt 6.7.1 tracks (vln1, vln2, vla, cello, bass) each containing one SF Chamber Strings Performance Legato.
5x Kontakt 6.7.1 tracks (vln1, vln2, vla, cello, bass) each containing one SF Studio Strings Performance Legato.

This way we are both testing with the same.

When I can tomorrow (we have sessions booked in all day), I will screen capture it as video (with sound) so you can see the settings within CB 11 & CB 12 are exactly the same and will then play back my MIDI files.

This way you can see and hear the issue happening rather than me trying to describe it.

I can also zip up the CB 11 & CB 12 project files and MIDI Files together with the plug-in Reports that Matthias has asked for so that you can see everything.

Due to another CB 12 issue where my Arturia MiniLab mk II has stopped working after installing the v12.0.20 update (it worked perfectly before), I have performed a clean fresh install of v12.0…00, v12.0.10 and then v12.0…20 as admin so all previous Cubase preferences have been (backed up as Matthias suggested) but then deleted from the system.
https://forums.steinberg.net/t/since-v12-0-20-my-arturia-minilab-mk-ii-no-longer-works-in-cb-pro-12/785557

So for the test I have fresh install of CB Pro 12.0.20 Build 263 and the only 3rd party plugin is Kontakt 6.7.1.

I can also confirm that even when I had all of my 3rd party plugins installed my CPU usage was quite low, as was memory usage.

With the fresh Cubase 12 install the CPU and Memory usage is even lower but the issue still happens.

I appreciate you trying to help me and I hope that the video will let you see and hear what is going on.

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@KennyEastMids Unfortunately we cannot reproduce the issue on our systems.

What does your system have, that we don’t?

Do you have any kind of other peripheral hardware attached? A screen splitter for multiple screens? Or a specific MIDI controller? Anything unusual that might interfere with Cubase 12?

Also, where are the Kontakt library stored? On the internal drive or an external hard disk?

Or do you use any kind of software on your systems that is active in the background while you are running Cubase?