Cubase 12 ONLY - Drop outs in Kontakt when more than 4 librarys playing

SCAN 3XS Custom Build dedicated DAW Workstation
Intel i7-10550H @ 2.60 GHz (12 logical Processors)
32 Gig RAM
Windows 10 Pro
Cubase Pro 12.0.10 Build 247
Steinberg UR22-C Audio Interface.
Kontakt 6

This issue ONLY happens in Cubase Pro 12 and does not happen in Cubase Pro 11.

I have a Kontakt multi string that I use regulary, its the same one that I have used with no issues in Cubase 8 to Cubase 11.

It consists of 10 Spitfire Audio Librarys, each one is onlty playing a single articulation with only one voice so in no way can it be overloading anything.
Each artication has Dynamics, Vibrato, Vibrato Speed and Expression data.

Since loading my multi in Cubase Pro 12 if I enable only four librays they play back perfectly but as soon as I enable a 5th, or 6th or all 10, I get audio dropouts on the librarys that I have enabled past the original 4.

I have tried setting my Steinberg UR22-C Buffer Size to 2048 Samples - made no difference but I left it at 2048 Samples and did the next step.

I then went in to Kontakts settings and increased its Instrument Preload Buffer to Maximum and it makes no difference.

I am of the FIRM belief that this is a Cubase 12 issue as the exact same multi plays back perfectly in Cubase 8, 9, 10 and 11.

It is crazy and ludicrus that the flagship Pro 12 is having so many issues and I have read Steinbergs statement blaming most of them on users machines and plug-ins. Thats is the same as a tool maker blaming the workman who use thier tools when they break.

It is clear to me that intensive testing was not done and Cubase 12 was rushed out.
Where was the Alpha Testing phase, and then the Beta phase???

What’s the point in such emotional and hyperbolic words? This is a software engineering question.

But that’s not how testing works. Each version contains changes. There might be more than one way for Kontakt to do something, depending on which host it’s plugged into.

Of course. But not all possible configurations that can be made throughout the world can be tested until issues are found.

Have you eliminated Kontakt as the culprit?

Steve.

Has my post broken any forums rules?

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Certainly not. I’m sure others will reply with steps you can take.

Native Instruments probably have not tested their software with C12. Unfortunately I have often had issues with Native Instrument , and mostly to do with Kontakt. I am assuming that you have unchecked Multicore support in Engine. There is a conflict with Cubase if enabled.

Not everything is the fault of Steinberg as plugin vendors often take a while to adapt their software, with some taking longer than others.

I was going to walk away but this has more than peaved me.

It is just unbelievable that I come to the forum that Steinberg sign posts users to (instead of providing true tech support) to reoport yet another issue and I get a Mod trolling me.

Well I will say this, having been a fully paid loyal customer since Cubase SX, my views and opinions are just as important as anyone elses.

I am not a hobby user, I run a commercial recording facility and composing suites of 25 years standing and if you purchased a expensive top of the range power tool, especially if said tool was pretty important to your ability to carry out your trade and it did not work as expected, would you complain, would you not take it back? Would you not expect the fault to be put right within a reasonable time frame?

Your comment that “This is a software engineering question” is only part right, it is a consummer question. A supplier and customer question. I was sold something that does not work as expected, finding the cure is a a software engineering question, thats Steinbergs job, thats is their legal responsability.

Your comment that “But not all possible configurations that can be made throughout the world can be tested until issues are found.” is wrong. Thats the point of Alpha and Beta testing and yes, I am part of the testing program for a different software developer (plugin related and not DAW related).

Let me put it like this - You purchase a brand new petrol vehicle that you use every day, that is essential to your business, and soon after you get it, you fill it up with fuel at your local garage. Soon after, the engine starts playing up. does not have enough power so you take it back to the manufacturer who says "oh its the fuel, you have put a brand of petrol in that we have not (bothered) tested therefore it is your fault!

Would that not be crazy and ludicrus?

And just to make a point “crazy and ludicrus” are not emotional or hyperbolic words, they are simply part of my native english launguage.

“Ludicrous” means amusing or laughable, and “Crazy” is the same as Funny, Daft, Cuckoo, Loopy, Mad, Nuts or Nutty.

I am sorry that I am not some “fan boy or fanbro” coming on the forum saying how perfect Pro 12 is, how its wonderful, how it beats the competition and how I love it.

If it was perfect I would say so but it is not and as a UK customer I have the legal right to report issues and expect them to be fixed within a reasonable time frame, in the same way any other UK customer has the same rights. In the UK our consumer laws go much further - we have extended rights for anything purchased online and that includeds software.

For EU customers - EU consumer laws state “You have the right to have faulty goods repaired or replaced.” by replaced the meaning is replaced with one that works as expected.

I did not want to get in to this and honestly I did not expect to have to with a forum Mod but you poured oil on an already burning fire. As you confirmed, my post did not break any forum rules so you had no reason to attack me as you did.

I respectfully ask you to remember that this is forum that Steinberg point users to on thier website, this forum is often the place that users new and old turn to for help, what kind of impression do you think your comments to me will make on new users?

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I rarely heard that VST Instrument producers have to completely rewrite their product only because the host application is new. That’s usually the sense of VST to be compatible on many DAWs and also their different versions, as long as the DAW! supports the VST version of the instrument or plugin. So, unless Steinberg has not introduced a new VST version with Cubase 12, everything must work as expected (like in previous versions). If not, the DAW manufacturer has to take actions to fix their problem! Too often I see people here protecting “their” DAW. I doubt that with other DAWs nearby this is the case. That’s why I am not on Cubase 12. I stopped with Cubase 11, and by seeing weird things going on with Cubase 12 and a very slow response of Steinberg (not new to me), I feel that I made the right decision.

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Hi silhouette

Yeah I have Multicore support unchecked.
I’m aware of the issues with Kontakt for some users but I find V6 has been very stable for me.

I know it is a Cubase Pro 12 issue because as I said in my original post, the same 10 library multi has no issues in Cubase Pro 11 (or Pro 10).

Exactly and the vst3 standard is Steinbergs own technology, they invented it.

1 Like

Are you getting different results with the same project between Cubase 11 and 12, or just the same Kontakt multi, used in different projects? (I don’t know if you can open a Cubase 12 project in 11, but you can go the other way around.)

Also, have you confirmed that both Cubase versions have the same settings in Studio Setup > Audio System? Specifically, Processing precision, ASIO-Guard Level and Audio Priority? (I am assuming you’re also running at the same sample rate/buffer size on the same audio interface between Cubase versions, as that would obviously influence performance.)

I am still only doing serious work in Cubase 11- just experimenting in Cubase 12 until at least one more patch comes out- but so far I haven’t noticed any project that plays well in 11 not performing the same in 12. I’ve got one Cubase 11 project that really does push my PC to its limits; had to freeze some tracks in order to complete the mix. Might give that a try on 12… although I’m not using Kontakt- it’s mostly audio tracks with a TON of FX plugs.

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Hi Ultimate Outsider
Yeah different results. In cubase 11 Pro the multi plays perfectly, and it did so in Cubase 8 and 9, it only now has issues in Cubase Pro 12.

It also does not cause any issues in Ableton Live, Studio One 5 or Pro Tools.

I always work in 48.000 KHz
24 Bit wav
with a mixture of stereo and mono as the project requires.
My normal Audio Interface Buffer Size is 1024 Samples so nothing taxing.

In BOTH Cubase 11 & 12 I have the same Advanced Options under Studio Setup.
Processing Precision
32 bit float
Active Milti processing Checked
Active ASIO-Guard Checked
ASIO-Guard Level normal

Audio Priority Normal
I do not use Steinbergs Audio Power Scheme as we have our own “high power” Scheme thats tweaked specificlly for each machine.

I will explain my testing…
In Kontakt 6 multicore is unckecked and the Instrument buffer size is 120.00 kb.

I have my own standard strings multi that I use as a starting point when ever I need a string section which I have used for a number of years. It consists of 10 Spitefire audio librarys made up of 5 x Studio Chamber Orchestra and 5 x Studio Strings.

Each library only plays one articulation so no library is playing more than one voice (or melody line) and in total it would have just 10 voices in total max.

I load the same Kontakt version in all DAWs and then I open my saved multi in Kontakt. I have used this string multi on countless tracks, often in a busy project loaded with 30+ tracks and 4 or 5 plugins per track and there have never been any issues.

My Audio interface has not changed between Cubase Pro 11 and Pro 12, it is a steinberg UR22-C with the firmware and Yamaha drivers always kept up to date.

As soon as this issue started, I created a new blank project in Cubase Pro 12 (so that I could eliminate plugs-ins and other Softsynths) and loaded the same simple midi file on the Kontakt instrument with basic Dynamics, Expression and Vibrato automation also written in the midi file.

Even a very basic laptop or computer should be able to play this back using just the motherboard sound drivers and for the UR22-C it should not even notice it.

I then unmuted each library track, one at a time, starting with the Violins, then Violas, then Celli, then Bass.

If I unmute any combination of four tracks it plays perfectly, as soon as I unmute a 5th the audio dropouts starts.

So I then set my Audio interface Buffer Size to its max (2048 Samples) and tried again but the same audio droputs happens as soon as I unmute a 5th track.

So I put the Audio interface Buffer Size back to 1024 Samples, and inside Kontakt I set its Preload Buffer to max, and tried again but that made no difference.

I then left Kontakts buffer at Max, and the set my audio interface at max and tried again but the audio dropouts are still there.

By reason of deduction the issue must be Cubase Pro 12.

If it was either my Audio Interface or Kontakt (or its settings) then the issue should be reproduced at least in Cubase 11.

Just to be sure, in Cubase pro 11 I opened my last project created in it which has:
12 Stereo audio files
3 Mono audio files
37 tracks of MIDI (not all playing at the same time)
Multiple sub bus’s
8 master groups

Some of the softsynths are CPU hogs like Omnisphere.

Most tracks have 3 - 5 plugins and some have 6 - 6.
My most used plugins mainly consist of Waves, Fab Filter, SSL, Oeksound, Cytomic, Arturia FX, Slate Digital, TC Electronic, Sound Toys, Antares, Valhalla DSP, Liquid Sonics, Izotope, IK Multimedia, Celemony and I some times use Air and the odd Eventide plug-in.

None of these plug-ins, or any of my softsynths, have ever caused any issues, If one did it would be uninstalled and off the machine.

Like you I am still using Pro 11 in all of our machines but I am damn angry that having paid for pro 12 and there has been a maintenace update the problems still exist yet instead of fixing them Steinberg was busy adding Dolby Atmos for music, along with “long-requested” functionalities which should have been part of Pro 12 from the start.

Maintenace releases are for fixing issues not adding new features.

Thats like adding bling to a car instead of fixing engine issues.

PS. Forgot to add that I am not using 3D or any advanced video settings on any of our machines…

All are purely DAW only so no games, internet or software otther than DAW and plug-ins/softsynths.

All systems are very well cooled, and the laptop with the issue, none of the CPU cores go above 80 degrees which is well inside the acceptable temps for the i7 in this machine.

No cracked software allowed period, all of our applications are fully legit, no shareware or trial software.

The laptop has two Samsung 970 Evo plus NVM SSD’s both are 14 months old, both tested for impending failure this morning by our tech guy and both given Good Health no issues with the hardware.

I really have nailed it down to best of my knowledge to it being Cubase Pro 12.

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You have me convinced!

I am wondering whether there is a fundamental difference between Cubase 11/12 in terms of multithreading & resource distribution, or whether there’s an issue specific to Kontakt at play.

This: [quote=“KennyEastMids, post:6, topic:782064”]
Your comment that “This is a software engineering question” is only part right, it is a consummer question. A supplier and customer question. I was sold something that does not work as expected, finding the cure is a a software engineering question, thats Steinbergs job, thats is their legal responsability.
[/quote]

And this:

I’ve written similar sentiments on this forum. And since then the Steinberg employees and mods have decided to ignore my very specific request for assistance, for one week or more, with multiple entreaties for help ( Current (Updated?) Official Steinberg detailed instructions for Upgrade from C11 to C12.0.10 (Grace) - #6 by alexis )

The official Steinberg responses/non- responses in these and other threads is a horrible look for new and prospective purchasers of Cubase/Steinberg products IMO. It’s also distressing for established users to see how Steinberg employees and mods treat their customers.

It also has the strong appearance of a major ethical lapse on the part of Steinberg employees and mods who help on this forum, in the form of retaliation against users (paid user for going on 20 years for my part) who believe, insist, and write that Steinberg is responsible for keeping their word: "if you give us money, we promise to deliver the product as described in our extensive marketing".

Please note: I am not definitively saying there is ongoing retaliation. Appearances can be deceiving. In that case I believe it is simply rude for Steinberg employees and mods to not respond at all to user requests for help such as mine, when they are fully able to.

My writing my feelings on this won’t change any behavior I’m guessing, but I’m not used to being treated this way by people I contract with to deliver goods and services, and I’ll speak out on this in any way that is within the forum rules.

Cubase is vey impressive software that I happen to use. That doesn’t give Steinberg reps and mods the liberty to act inappropriately, IMO.

Over.

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My belief is that there is something different about Cubase 12, the Devs have been tinkering or too busy adding flashy new tinsel rather than inproving the basic program.

More toys, bell and whistles = more sales

Its like, make it shiny, put it out and ignore customers complaints and it says it all when steinbergs devs do not spend meaningful time in the forum providing tech support for THEIR program and what staff and reps (incl forum reps) do come in here are rude and unhelpful.

Completely agree and same here, 20 years as a paying user and never have I felt more unvalued, disrespected and looked down upon as I do now.

Its darn good job that I am not going to NAMM because if I was and if Steinberg had a stand, they would have had a very angry visit from me.

I think the change happened when the new owner took over, the regional Tech support was closed, the friendly relationship with customers (I knew some of the UK tech support guys by first name) trashed and the money men accountants took over.

There is a lot more I could say but I wont as I am getting angry again.

2 Likes

So yet another wasted afternoon testing and I have ruled out the proplem being the Spitfire Librarys.

The dropouts happen no matter what 10 librarys I load in Kontakt. 4 will play perfectly and unmuting a fifth causes the issue. The fifth can be any library or articulation, it is not library specific.

HEY STIENBERG How about some help?

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I even messaged Matthias_Quellmann days ago to ask if he could get my support ticket looked at and he has not even bothered to reply.

This is APPAULING treatment of loyal paying customers…

Yes, that’s right. You messaged me on Sunday morning 2am and I didn’t respond immediately. I hope that this is understandable. But I am always happy to help, as long as we keep the conversation respectful and constructive. I will also try to answer here instead of the PM. Maybe some others users have the same issue.

It’s unusual that you didn’t receive an answer to our support ticket. I don’t have access to the support ticket system since I’m not a support agent, but I’ll check with the team. There is still a phone support available in the UK. You can find the number here: https://helpcenter.steinberg.de/hc/en-us/articles/206530864-Contact-support

We have created a dedicated thread for performance issues like this and our team has been very active to communicate with the customers in that thread. We didn’t had this one on the radar. Usually when there are performance issues that happen in a new generation, but the previous Cubase generation doesn’t have those problems, we ask the users to generate traces in both generations for comparison. There have been reports about performance issues with Kontakt, but those were only on Mac OS Rosetta.

It would be great to get some more information. Could you please sent me the plug-in reports from within Cubase 12 and Cubase 11 so that the team can have a look at your system configurations? The report also includes CPU details and other more, that’s why I’m asking.

Your comment about your custom power scheme is the only thing that is kind of unusual so far. Could you please just try once to activate the Steinberg Power Scheme to check if that changes anything?

We are already working on the next maintenance update, that should bring some performances improvements (no new features. Just fixes.), but I can’t tell at this stage if your issue will be fixed. Let me talk to the team.

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Hi Matthias, yes answering here is a good idea so that it could help others.

I can confirm that using the Steinberg power Scheme makes no difference.

More than happy to provide plugin reports, how do I generate those for you?

Open the same project in Cubase 11 and Cubase 12 and go to the plug-in manager. You can create and save the report at the bottom of that page. Zip both reports and sent it to me in a PM.