Difficulty with Inputting Tied Dotted Notes When Using the "After inputting note" Setting

Dorico
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I have set the Pitch and Duration option to “Specify accidental, rhythm dot and articulations” to “After inputting note.”
This setting is convenient for me, especially when entering chromatic phrases, as it allows me to input notes without worrying about accidentals and adjust things afterward.

While the “After inputting note” option feels intuitive to me, I’ve encountered one issue. When entering dotted notes tied to other notes, I am unable to input them as written in the score.

Please take a look at the following image. With the “After inputting note” setting, this is the input method I’m expecting:

240907_tied-note-dotted

  1. I select the bar and press Shift+N to begin note input.
  2. I press the 6 key to select a quarter note, then input G, followed by T (to tie).
  3. I press the 5 key to select an eighth note and input G.
  4. At this point, I press the dot key to create a dotted eighth note (but this doesn’t work correctly).
  5. I press the 4 key to select a sixteenth note, then input A.

What actually happens is that when I input the dot at step 4, the “quarter note + eighth note” tied together reverts back to a quarter note. It seems that Dorico interprets the tied notes as a dotted quarter note, thus breaking the tie.

To input it correctly, I have to modify step 4 as follows:
→ Set the grid line to sixteenth notes, and extend the duration by a sixteenth using Alt+Shift+Right.

Alternatively, I can input the notes and the dot without the tie, and then add the tie afterward. (This approach is slightly easier for me, so it seems like a workaround for now).

This behavior feels unintuitive to me. Is there any way to input a rhythm dot without treating the tied notes as a single note?

3 Likes
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In general, you should never use T during note input. It is a last resort, and only really to be used outside of note input. In my opinion.

Instead, here you should do the following:

  1. Set your rhythmic grid to 16th notes
  2. Input a dotted quarter note
  3. Increase its duration by pressing Shift-Alt-right arrow once.
  4. Carry on
1 Like
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If this is helpful: Dorico doesn’t “think” of your first note as three (or four) things — i.e., as quarter + tie + dotted eighth. It thinks of it as one: ”note lasting seven sixteenths — and ties are shown automatically.

3 Likes
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Or you can just enter that G as a double-dotted quarter and let Dorico write it according to the settings – because its notation can also be changed by the settings afterward. Getting used to “doing the math” of quickly recognizing equivalent durations really helps speed and simplify note entry.

The concept is: You’re not really “entering a rhythm dot”, you’re making a note a certain length, and there are always different ways.

BTW, I do sometimes use T during note input – but for different purposes:

  1. To correct a too-short entry without interrupting input. Example: I meant a dotted half but I forgot the dot. Just tie it to a quarter of the same pitch and keep going.
  2. To cobble together an odd (and/or very long) total note value, without having to backtrack. For example you can get 4½ quarters with: 8 (pitch) T 5 (same pitch) without having to change the grid. Of course it works equally well to tie a dotted half to a dotted quarter.
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To change how Dorico displays note durations (ie to get either dotted quarters or quarters tied to quavers) - go to the Notation Options dialog (on the Library menu), Note Grouping page, and take a look through the available per-flow defaults.

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@dan_kreider , could you explain why you prefer this method and avoid T?

Since I use MIDI keyboard for note input and my left hand is on the main PC keyboard (not numpad), I would use the following steps for this example:

  1. Input a quarter note
  2. T
  3. Input dotted 8th (double-click)
  4. Input 16th
7

Dunno, just preference. Both are fine.

1 Like
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image
This rhythm will give you similar problems. Even when using forced duration, Dorico will mess up your entire bar when trying to add the dot to the eighth note (it will simply remove the entire note as well as the dot that is attached to the half note). So in stead of simply adding a dot, which is the actual key that I’m pressing, Dorico decides to remove 1.5 beats from your bar, because eat that human. Setting the grid to 16ths, pressing shift+alt+arrow and then setting the grid back to eighth notes (because I really don’t want it in 16ths for this piece) means moving both hands to different positions twice which kills my speed and workflow. For me it’s actually faster to enter the bar without the tie and applying it afterwards.

I think these messy situations are all caused by the “tied notes are one note” dogma. Sure that sounds fine in theory and/or from a player’s perspective, and it’s fantastic that Dorico actually thinks of players when designing their software. The thing is, sometimes entering notes or engraving simply require a different mindset than playing those same notes. Just like in a word processor you have to input words one letter at a time, even though some letters form one digraph. The fact that the reader reads those letters as one does not mean you should not be allowed to edit them, or be forced to use some clunky keyboard shortcuts to be able to enter them in the first place. Imagine that you want to input the word “digraph” in MS Word and Word keeps deleting the p whenever you enter the h, after which MS tells you that your way of entering the word is “wrong” because you should have written an f and let Word autocorrect it after the fact, because f is the actual pronunciation of the ph. While I don’t deny that this might actually be a solution for some people, others would be driven to insanity.

2 Likes
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Provided you have Force Duration active for every part of the input process of this kind of figure, you should have no problem. So, assuming the default “duration before pitch” input method, the sequence would be something like:

  1. With the caret visible, hit O to activate Force Duration.
  2. Hit 7 twice in quick succession to choose a dotted half duration.
  3. Hit F to input the pitch: you will see a dotted half at this point.
  4. Hit 5 twice in quick successtion to choose a dotted eighth duration.
  5. Hit T to activate the tie.
  6. Hit F to input the note.
  7. Hit 4 to choose a 16th duration.
  8. Hit G to input the note.
  9. Hit O to deactivate Force Duration again.

That takes a lot longer for me to type and to parse for you as a reader than it does to actually do it.

We know that users want to be able to consolidate three-beat notes at the starts of bars in common time meter more easily, and this is something we will add to Dorico’s repertoire of automatic note grouping features in future. In the meantime, it’s easy to achieve this result using Force Duration.

3 Likes
11

Thanks again for your reply! And great to hear that additional features will be added in furture updates. :slight_smile:

I do use “duration before pitch”, but just like the OP I have set the “Specify accidental, rhythm dot and articulations” setting to “After inputting note”. If I reset that to “Before inputting note”, I can replicate your sequence exactly. But when using the “After inputting note” method for dots/articulations/accidentals, it can go two ways depending on whether I use the double-tap shortcut for dotted notes (which usually also works great for the “after input”-method as long as no ties are involved):

With double tapping:
  1. With the caret visible, I hit O for Force Duration.
  2. Hit 7 twice in quick succession to choose a dotted half duration.
  3. Hit F to input the pitch: the dotted half appears.
  4. Hit 5 twice in quick succession to choose a dotted eighth duration.
  5. The dotted half note is reversed to a half note. Curiously, this happens regardless of which note value I double tap. I can double tap 1 through 9 and it always changes the dotted half note into a half note.
Without double tapping:
  1. With the caret visible, I hit O for Force Duration.
  2. Hit 7 to choose a half note duration.
  3. Hit F to input the pitch
  4. Hit period to add the dot: I now have a dotted half note
  5. Hit 5 to choose an eighth duration.
  6. Hit T to activate the tie.
  7. Hit F to input the pitch: I now have a dotted half tied to an eighth
  8. Hit period to add the dot
  9. The eighth disappears and the dotted half note is reversed to a half note.

EDIT: Janus’ comment below got me thinking and he has a point. It doesn’t seem very logical to use duration before pitch, while at the same time using the “dots after note input” setting. So he got me thinking about my workflow and in practice, I use the double tap shortcut for rhythm dots whenever I can, so I actually prefer inputting the dots before pitch. The reason I chose the “after input” setting is really because of the accidentals and articulations. Maybe it would make more sense to separate that into two different settings? So one switch for setting articulations/accidentals before or after input, and a separate switch for rhythm dots?

1 Like
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I don’t see the logic of using that particular combination of settings. If you are opting to do duration before pitch, surely that would also include rhythmic dots?
(My tiny brain cannot separate the dot from the duration)

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I use the setting because I want to apply articulations and accidentals after input. The setting however applies to dots as well. In practice I use the double tap for dotted notes whenever I can, which is pretty much anytime there are no tied notes involved.