Dorico 2 with graphic Tempo and Midi CC-Editors, why should I use Cubase any longer?

Having the ability of detailed Editing of Tempo and Midi-CC in Dorico 2 (great Job Guys :smiley: ) brings up a serious decision for my Workflow:
Why should I work in Cubase any longer?
Which essential Functions for rendering midi-Data with VST’s are still missing, which would make it still necessary to send a score from Dorico to Cubase?

There are so many differences, I wouldn’t know where to start! Logical editing in Cubase for a first…

Just…wow. All I’ve done is watched the videos, but if everything works as advertised this is a boatload of new, extremely useful features (divisi support, exploding staves, system track, automation lanes and tempo track, etc.) that appear to have been implemented with the quality we have come to expect from the Dorico people. Kudos, hats off, horn toots to the team. I’m hoping that in use these new features will make it possible to move my composition over to Dorico.

Just name the fundamental things which are really indispensable in Cubase but still missing in Dorico 2…

I can still see a huge role for Cubase in turning notated compositions with preliminary MIDI mockups into fully produced mockups, but notational composition looks to have taken a major leap forward. Again, thanks to the team.

We know that things like having a click, real-time input, real-time recording of controller data etc. are all still sorely missing, but we will work to add them as quickly as possible. Hopefully we have at least demonstrated that we understand the needs you have, and we are working to address them.

Of course you did :smiley: :smiley: :smiley: :smiley: :smiley:
Am I right, that when it comes to get a written score renndered with VST’s there should no longer be anything written needed to make it a musical reasonable recording of the musical Idea right inside Dorico?

If so, thats definitly what I hoped, asked and waited for so much!!!

It’s definitely the goal that you should be able to do the necessary MIDI editing and shaping of the sound by way of effects etc. directly in Dorico, yes, so that you don’t need to move to Cubase if you don’t want to. It will take us a bit more time to get there, I’m sure, but hopefully these new features point the way.

Yes they do.

So much added that’s definitely in the right direction so thanks! But definitely +1 for a click, and real time recording and editing of MIDI and MIDI controller data (the film integration will not be entirely useful until then). Any chance that this will come along before another major “numbered” upgrade? :slight_smile:

  • rj

Hi Daniel, are these features (real-time input etc) planned to be in a future (non-paid) Dorico 2 update?

Is there already something that can be used in Dorico 2 to deal with Kontakt instruments like Cinematic Studio Strings which start delayed depending on the midi note velocity? Examples: velocity 0-64: 333ms, velocity 65-100: 250ms, etc.

robjohn9999 and S4410, I can’t say for sure what we will add in future free updates to Dorico 2.0, as to some extent our priorities over the next little while will be determined by what kind of feedback we get to today’s new releases, but yes, the goal would be to add a click track and real-time MIDI input in the lifetime of 2.x. Please don’t hold me to that at this stage, as all the usual caveats apply: plans can change, software development is hard, don’t count your chickens before they’re hatched, etc.

bnz, you can’t currently edit velocity directly via the current editors in Play mode, but I hope a velocity editor will be coming relatively soon.

Yes this exactly. The new Dorico will certainly make my job a lot easier when I finally transfer a composition to Cubase (less endless fiddling with MIDI CC and massaging performances), but there is no way it’ll replace it (for me anyway) from a final production and mastering point of view… and I wouldn’t expect to either. :slight_smile:

That said 2.0 is an amazing upgrade, I’m looking forward to digging through it and experimenting just as soon as I’ve got my latest film project out of the way. :slight_smile:

Can the expression maps change midi channel yet? e.g. slurs on one channel and stac. on another. Cubase does this and is a big reason I still use it as part of my workflow for mockups.

@Daniel: velocity editor is cool. I think a velocity editor alone is not sufficient to deal with instruments like that in a score editor. The point is more that of how the timing is compensated depending on the velocity. For example, in Cubase there are multiple ways to deal with this:

  1. you compensate for the timing during recording with the keyboard playing (i.e. you hit the keys earlier, needs a bit of practice, but works pretty well). If you are going for a midi export to create the score, you need to push the midi notes to the right, for example, by applying the logical editor with shift to the right rules depending on the velocity.
  2. you use another instrument without such a complicated delay behavior, for example non-delayed strings, play the part with that and apply the logical editor on the Midi part to shift the midi notes to the left (-333ms, -250ms etc.) depending on the velocity and switch to the Kontakt instrument.

I think what is needed to deal with instruments that try to simulate realistic instrument behavior like that is something like a non-destructive midi processor where you can enter rules for an instrument how notes are shifted to the right or left before the midi notes arrive in Kontakt or similar depending on some midi conditions (velocity, controller data, whatever - I’m not really sure what other Kontakt instruments are doing). It’ll be also pretty interesting to see how the legato transitions will work out in Dorico as they require some overlap between the midi notes.

There is a really nice video on Youtube explaining all that: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p19v9VrESKo (starting at minute 44:43 - ~60:00). It’s lengthy, but I think it demonstrates some typical procedures working with that particular library pretty well. I’m assuming that similar procedures are needed for other libraries as well.

Yes, thanks for your feedback on this – I had a chat with another composer who works a lot with mock-ups recently and he said exactly the same thing, that these days the biggest job is compensating for the time it takes samples to speak, and that we should provide an easy way to offset notes to compensate. This is certainly on our list of ideas for the future.

No, not yet I’m afraid, but this is of course still planned.

I love Love LOVE the direction that Dorico is going! The MIDI CC feature additions to Dorico was about the best surprise I’ve had in the past couple of years! However, Cubase definitely still has a place. In my world, I find myself using a combination of Sibelius and Cubase via Rewire. Why? The directors I work with are looking for a “hybrid” sound where it is part orchestra and part something else. Sibelius (to be hopefully replaced by Dorico very soon!) is great for composing classical/orchestral arrangements and cues. Cubase is perfect for pop/rock/sound design/etc. By using Rewire, I can craft a cue using both styles with relative ease. Except Sibelius sucks when it comes to handling VSTs. I can’t describe how much I HATE Sibelius sound sets! Ugh! Which is a major reason I am so excited about where Dorico is going.

BTW, another cool thing I spotted was the ability to add as many actions as you want for a particular articulation. WAY SUPERIOR to Sibelius!! Kudos! And a graphical tempo track too?? I’m swooning!

Anyway, I am NOT looking for Dorico to replace Cubase (I don’t think Steinberg is either) but I would like to see a few features released before I can make the switch from Sibelius to Dorico:

  1. Rewire or some kind of tempo-sync with Cubase. This is what facilitates composing for hybrid styles and cues. I don’t want to bog down Dorico with a bunch of Omnisphere/Heavyosity/Whatever staves…
  2. Able to see two or more MIDI CC controller lanes - especially as I use both CC 1 and CC11 for most libraries.
  3. Speaking of libraries, I don’t use HSSE. I’m using Kontakt-based or EW Play exclusively. So loading the HSSE bogs things down quite a bit. Can we unload it or not load it in the first place.
  4. +1 to the velocity-based legato where lower velocity = earlier note on.
  5. Track delay in ms to also help with the “pulse” landing on the downbeat. Maybe as part of an articulation/VST/instrument profile.
  6. A video thumbnail track. Just to make finding scenes a little easier.

That’s my wish list but I’m totally digging where Dorico is headed!!

My $0.02.

We plan to add video thumbnails, and we plan to make it possible to show more than one controller lane at once, too. In the future I’m sure we will find a good solution for sync with Cubase – I hope it will be something better than ReWire, but it’s not something we’ve started discussing in earnest with the team in Hamburg just yet.

Me too. :smiley: Thanks for the update, Daniel!