Thanks, Dave. Even though after Daniel’s update it may no longer be 100% relevant to my Dorico 3 issues, I have a few naive questions if you don’t mind answering:
The Mac Pro is the 2013 model, but it was bought factory-new direct from Apple about 2 years ago. In this particular case do you think cruft might still be a concern?
The iMac was actually bought in 2013, and you’re correct that I’ve never done any deep cleaning on that one. It’s probably a good idea for me to do as you suggest, but as I’m currently completely unprepared for the nuclear option, it’ll require me some time to ramp up to being ready to wipe it. To clarify, after reinstalling the OS and critical applications, what do you recommend as far as reinstating some of my data? I assume that restoring from a Time Machine backup would just restore the cruft, so should I bring certain files back on an as-needed basis? Or is a Time Machine clone of the drive somehow cruft-free?
I wouldn’t advise wiping and reinstalling at this point as I don’t think that is likely to fix anything. We have now had several reports from VE Pro users on mac who have the same crash as you, so I don’t think your case is truly unique. I hope that it’s reproducible for them, because if it is then that makes fixing it a lot easier. As far as we can tell up to now, it appears that this is a crash on exit. The audio engine crashes and it causes Dorico to hang (as it’s waiting for a response that never arrives). If this happens, it should be ok to just kill the Dorico3 and VSTAudioEngine3 processes, if they are still running, and start again.
However, I think that you be caught in the maelstrom of several separate issues which has made it harder to tell what’s actually happening. We’ve fixed a number of other hangs and crashes, and there are some others that we have workarounds for. If you have a specific project that always hangs on loading or playback, please attach them or send me a DM with a link and I shall try to fix them up for you, if they are one of the issues we already know about.
By cruft, I mean all the cache files, preferences and generally anything that sits in the two Library directories. You could try using a new user to see if this fixes anything. Beyond that, I’d get suspicious that something is corrupted in your system files so an OS reinstall would be indicated. Whether you have issues on your Mac Pro is completely a function of how you used it since you bought it. But given the crash history you’ve had, I’d be suspicious that there are system files that have been broken.
If you do a full reinstall, just don’t restore the files in the Library directories from your backup. I know it’s a lot of work to get that stuff back the way you had it, but sometimes you just have to bite the bullet.
Thanks Dr. W, that perfectly captures how I’ve been feeling. I do be caught in the maelstrom “I go fishing for a thousand monsters in the depths of my own self …” – Kierkegaard
In case the info helps at all: at least in my particular case, strictly from a UI standpoint, it seems to happen as you describe approximately half the time (although, force quitting D3 and VSTengine3 doesn’t result in me being able to load the file afterward). But in addition, there are plenty of cases where the UI indicates that Dorico3 has exited normally (“open” indicators disappear from the dock, menu bar and command-tab; D3 and VST Audio Engine no longer listed in Activity Monitor, etc., etc.) but still when I try to re-open a file, freeze upon load.
I have many such projects, but most of them were just temporary sandboxes created to test linking my VEP template to D3, and to try to troubleshoot myself before bothering you with the problem. I’d like to persevere with creating a few VEP+Dorico template projects if at all possible … but do you have any sense whether, after wrapping up the plugin&endpoint setups within the file, having you fix it for me would “stick” if no further changes were made to the plugins and endpoint routing?
In other words, do you think the problem might re-instantiate itself after making changes only to the score and/or to xMaps? If so, then I can’t in good conscience bother you to fix the file for me on what would likely become a daily basis, unless you could teach me how to go under the hood and do the surgery myself. If however, you think the project will be relatively stable after I’ve finished mucking with plugins and endpoint setups, etc., then I would greatly appreciate if you’d be willing to help a few times (it will probably take more than one iteration before endpoints are finalized). I know you have far more than this on your plate, so I’d appreciate some clarity on this point.
Thanks again for sharing your expertise, Dave; it’s very valuable for future reference, though after Paul’s recommendation I’m not sure how soon I will take the plunge. One last question: would you happen to know any articles with reliable recommendations on the best ways to use my computers so as to minimize corrupting system files, etc.? (As someone who isn’t tech-savvy in general, it can sometimes be hard to distinguish between solid advice and well-intended-but-bad advice … particularly when it comes to audio engineering, but even when it comes to things like the OS … I would trust an info source recommended by you over something I found randomly myself. But please don’t go to any trouble, I’m just asking on the off chance you already know a good recommendation offhand.)
There is a very specific hang that can happen with projects that have the ‘show plugin window’ flag set. That will manifest itself when you press Play or try to apply a playback template. We’ve fixed that in our internal Dorico builds, and I can fix the settings in the file if you have a specific project that you would like to get working again. For your own sanity, I would perhaps suggest leaving the VE Pro configurations just for a short while longer until we have a better understanding (and even better, a fix) for the VE Pro crashing issue. I hope we’ll have something to report soon. I’m sorry that you’re having this instability in the meantime.
EDIT: For some reason it’s showing as samreed, but it’s actually it’s actually Paul
Actually, it’s neither of these settings. It’s the state of the ‘e’ button in the rack window. There are situations when it can be set even when a plugin isn’t loaded which causes an infinite loop (‘Can I show the plugin window yet?’, No, the plugin isn’t loaded. ‘OK, can I show it now?’. Nope, still not loaded. ‘What about now?’, ad nauseum).
Um, something very weird is going on here. I’m not sure who wrote the last post (Paul perhaps?) but I’m 100% sure I didn’t write it, even though it appears under my name. It also quotes my words as if dbudde wrote them.
In addition, two posts I wrote have disappeared, including one where I thanked Dave for his suggestions (arstechnica et al.), so again: thanks, Dave!
In the other missing post, I could’ve sworn I asked Paul a variation of the question I asked Daniel. Can you please give me a rough sense if we’re looking at weeks vs. months before a fix arrives, and how I can be notified when it does? I’m not asking for promises, nor am I going to hold you responsible for any estimated timeline. I’m just asking for a best guess (or realistic worst case scenario) in good faith. I have projects coming up in a few weeks with deadlines toward end of year, and I’d hoped to get up and running for them in D3 to take advantage of the new features. But if there’s even a remote possibility that I’ll end up having to complete these projects in D2, better to know sooner rather than later so I can prepare accordingly.
Given that we don’t yet know the precise nature of the problem, it’s essentially impossible to predict how long a fix might take. We’re not sure whether the problem is solely on our side (i.e. in Dorico and/or the audio engine) or whether the team at VSL might also need to make changes to Vienna Ensemble Pro to alleviate the problem. The pragmatic approach if you have deadlines is to plan to use whatever currently works most stably for you.
Thank you Daniel, I will plan accordingly. And as to my other question re: how to sign up to be notified when a fix is available … ?
I must have misunderstood your earlier statement, “I believe any solution is going to require updated components from us,” which combined with the fact that I’ve never experienced these problems in Dorico 2, seemed to indicate reasonable certainty that VSL wouldn’t need to make changes to VEP. If I had understood otherwise, I would have put this on their radar earlier.
If we have something we want you to test, we’ll contact you directly. Otherwise, you can just look at the Steinberg Hub window each time you run Dorico, as that shows the latest posts from the Dorico blog, where any new release will always immediately be announced.
Okay, I hear you loud and clear. The hub is always blank for me since I don’t connect music computers to the internet, but I will keep an eye on the blog.
FWIW, [Not sure how much this relates to this thread but in case its of help I’ll post]
I have VEPro 7 running under Dorico 3 on my Hacintosh running OS 10.12.2. Oddly, I am able to run Synchron Pianos inside of VE Pro with Dorico 3 although I am unable to select Synchron Pianos by themselves as they don’t show up as an option in the list. Synchron Player shows as does VE Pro and within VE Pro I can then run Synchron Pianos. I wish I could just select Synchron Pianos by themselves though as it would simplify my setup.
Any idea why Synchron Pianos doesn’t show up in the VST Instrument List?
In anycase, its wonderful to have my Synchron Pianos playing inside Dorico 3 via VE Pro. I’m a little closer to heaven, though being an older guy, I’m not sure how much I should be celebrating…
Hi Sam,
you provided us Dorico crash files and among them were also crash files of VEPro.
We got in contact with our friends in Vienna and asked them to take a look.
Now they came back and said that it is was 2 plug-ins that brought down VEPro,
namely Flux Spat V3 and Plogue Bidule.
So you should get in contact with the makers of these 2 plugs and tell them
that they crashed VEPro with you. You can also provide the same crash files
to them. The respective developers will know how to get relevant information out of there.
That’s interesting, because both SPAT v3 and Bidule get validated by VEPro 7 itself on my system… Did the good folks in Vienna have any opinion on why it’s all fine in Dorico 2…?
That they get validated does not mean everything. Same with our own plug-in scanners, they just load a plug-in and do some basics checks. If that passes they are marked as good, but they still might crash later on, so it is by no means a guarantee.
And every system is different. On one computer a plug-in just runs fine, on another the same one might crash immediately, or depending on the way it is used. And it could also be that it was just luck that it was running earlier. Already small changes in the timing of calls can reveal lurking design flaws.
Thank you for the update. Unfortunately, this does not address the main problem I’m having. As I noted in an earlier post, when I moved from a one-computer-localhost setup to a two-computer-master/slave setup, the VE Pro crashes stopped.*****
I chose the wording in the the thread title carefully: before reporting the problem, I tried literally every Dorico file I have ever made, as well as new ones which I created to test & troubleshoot. As a consequence of this testing, I have also tried every VEP server project I have ever made, ~75% of which have never contained any instances of Spat v3 nor Plogue Bidule.
The main problem still plagues my system: any Dorico 3 project I connect to VE Pro (even completely blank VEP projects without any plugins loaded in them) will not open after saving the Dorico project and restarting Dorico. When I try to open such a file, Dorico hangs (spinning beachball, “program not responding”) for as much as three hours if I leave it that long before force quitting.
I will of course share the relevant crash reports with those plugin developers, but could you please reassure me that addressing the main problem I’m faced with is still on the team’s to-do list? (I’m stuck on Dorico 2 until I can reliably connect Dorico 3 projects to VE Pro.)
(Also, is it still the team’s recommendation to hold off on trying Dave’s idea about wiping my boot drives bare and performing clean installs of OS X and all apps? Last week Paul recommended to wait on trying this; just making sure that recommendation hasn’t changed in the interim.)
My thanks to you, Paul, and the rest of the team for your efforts to fix this.
*****(Note that due to some weird forum bug, the post where I wrote about this has disappeared. However, my original post is quoted in post #906332 above, where due to said weird forum bug, Paul’s reply showed up under my name, and the words Paul quotes show as written by dbudde, even though it was I who wrote them.)
“I go fishing for a thousand monsters in the depths of my own self …” – Kierkegaard