"Double" clefs

Occasionally two clefs are needed at the beginning of a line:
initial clefs.jpg
Can Dorico do this?

Dorico can’t do this natively at the moment: it’s something of an obsolete practice these days (does the piano player really need to see the bass clef in the left hand in order to remind him that he’s sitting down at a piano?). However, I know that some editions and publishers do use this convention, so we hope to support it at some point in the future.

I think a bit more than “some” editors use this practice: Bärenreiter, Henle, Breitkopf, … I can append many examples. I also don’t like always this standard, but there are reasons: the bad habit of we pianist that you cite, probably isn’t a good reason!; repeats may need the double clefs if before the repeat the clef is F and it doesn’t change after the repeat but it’s G at the beginning. Another thing very easy to do with Cubase… :wink:

Thank you, Daniel. Will it be possible to use a workaround to accomplish this within Dorico?

I agree with Alberto that this notation is not obsolete. There is also the case of placing a cue at the start of a line with a non-native clef:

“It is good practice to retain the player’s clef at the beginning of a stave at all times—a flute part that appears to begin with a bass clef does not inspire confidence.” Elaine Gould, Behind Bars, page 573 with an example.

Here is an example with instances at measures 1 and 84:
Brahms Double Clefs 2.jpg

The clef handling will be interesting to take part of in Dorico.
In “some other notation software” this is not easy at all, especially at repeats or alternative endings where one have to insert empty bars with small durations just to provide correct notation, and as previous posters mentioned, when you “jump” to another location, leaving in on clef, and arriving in another.

There aren’t any good workarounds to allow the placement of a second clef with Dorico’s current functionality, I’m afraid. As I said in my initial response, I don’t see any reason why we should not support this convention in the future, but it’s not something that will be present in the initial release.

Thank you very much, Daniel. I am sure such things will be promptly addressed and enabled in future versions. I do hope that Dorico will eventually have the flexibility to handle the less common and unforeseen situations that arise in music notation.

I was able to fake it by pasting in a treble clef glyph, re-sizing, and some note spacing, but would be great to get this sometime. Thanks as always! :slight_smile:
piano double clef.png