Expression map - Send multiple CC simultaneously

Cubase
1

Hello,

I’m trying to setup an expression map with Modern Scoring Strings. The one provided by Audiobro doesn’t fully suits to my use of the scale and ostinatos. This is for context only, my question is about the expression map itself and the way Cubase handles the map outputs : can Cubase send multiple CC message simultaneously from an expression map?

Usually I need only one CC output to change articulations, sometimes combined with 1 or 2 KS. Bur here I would need the map to trigger simultaneously up to 4 CCs to control Key/Tonality/Mode/Timing (say CC111/112/113/116) with the help of the expression map groups.

Quick disclaimer : I’m used to working with groups in expression maps. I quite understand how they work, and of course I can make mistakes when the setting them up. But I just want to say I’m using them the way the were intended to, so probably my issue is not comming from my missing knowledge of groups/slots.

Ok, back to my problem. I first designed a small test map, which was working nicely. Full of happiness, I then designed the whole expression map (around 4300 slots will all combinations !), and put it to the test. Here it didn’t work. But even worse : my small test map had stopped working from time to time, randomly as it appears.

For instance, I have to send simultaneously KS [C-2] + CC111 + CC112. The KS correctly triggers the Group 1 from the expression map (Scales articulation), but both CCs don’t trigger their respective Group 2 and 3 (Key and Tonality), leading to the Scale to be played in the wrong key.

Interesting detail : when I select each note one by one (with the articulations applied to them as attribute), the correct articulation are played back. But when I play back the whole line, the articulations are wrong (Scales articulation ok but wrong key and tonality).

This leads me to think that Cubase can’t properly handle multiple CCs sent by the expression map at the same time. It works well with KS, but inconsistantly and quite badly with CCs.

Does anyone has faced the same issue in the past? Did you find a solution?

I found a tedious workaround to finish my current project, by using classic CC lanes.

And if anyone at Steinberg’s is reading those line, it would be great to have a big update of all the expression maps related stuff. Have a coffee with the Dorico team, they have pretty good ideas on the matter (map versions, map manager, import…)

Many thanks for the help you all may bring :slight_smile:

2

Hi and welcome to the forum,

Click the + (Add Slot in the Output Mapping area) button to add another slot, where you can define the 2nd MIDI CC to send out.

3

Hi Martin,

Thanks for the very quick reply.
Maybe I wasn’t very clear in my explanation. The expression map slots are correctly setup with the appropriate outputs (at least 1 KS, and up to 1 KS + 4 CCs). However not all CC messages are transmitted to the instrument, hence my question regarding Cubase’s ability to manage multiple CC outputs à the same time.

Here is the output of one of the biggest slots (with a 3rd CC at the end) :
image

Do you confirm Cubase should handle such a configuration?

4

Hi,

Yes, Cubase should handle this. Could you try to add MIDI Monitor and inspect if Cubase sends the data out or not, please?

I tried similar setup and Cubase sends the data out on my side.

5

I’m sorry, I can’t find how to monitor MIDI coming from the expression map. I see the notes and the CC in the lanes, but nothing else. Is there a specific setting to see the data from the map?

Edit : I also tried with another map and another instrument. Articulations switches, but still no data visible within the MIDI monitor.

6

Ok, so I monitored directly from Kontakt. As expected, the KS data is correctly transmitted. However, the datas from all CC (currently CC108 and CC109) are always set to 1, while their value in the map are supposed to be different (see the values in the picture above).

I ran the same test on the other map/instrument, and the correct CC value is sent (CC32).
The only real difference between both maps is one sends 1 CC only, the other sends 1 KS + 1/2/3/4 CCs.

7

Hi,

Please add the MIDI Monitor to the track’s MIDI Insert. We need to know what does Cubase really transmit. We already know what does Kontakt receive.

8

Hi,

Ok, so this is what I did first yesterday, with these results :

  • I monitored all MIDI : detected notes and CC lanes (CC1 dynamics)
  • I monitored specific CC : no data from CC108/109 coming from the map. Also no data from CC32 with the map that actually works.

So Kontakt receives data (partially with wrong values), but Cubase doesn’t detect it, it seems.

9

Hi @Martin.Jirsak

Getting back to you on this specific issue, as I don’t find any solution after various research.
I might have found the reason of the issue, perhaps you will confirm.

During my testing, I made a small expression map that acts like a very small portion of the all-in-one expression map I designed. This small map is 6 slots, with 7 articulations (divided in groups as in the large map).
And strangely enough, the articulations change correctly during playback. Kontakt receives correct CC108 and CC109 values, though they are not detected by Cubase’s MIDI Monitor.

There is a differente behaviour with the large map : Kontakt receives wrong values for CC108 and CC109 (still nothing visible on MIDI Monitor). For most articulations, CC values stick to 1 where they should vary up to 127.

The small map give good results where the large map causes trouble, so is there a size limit to expression maps / to the number of slots or articulations Cubase can handle? My large map has 149 articulation combined in 4238 slots (I know, I know… :sweat_smile:)

I wonder because loading the large map on a track causes Cubase to freeze for a while. Same when I open a MIDI region. And live playback doesn’t switch the articulations properly, but if I select a note with my mouse it plays back the correct articulation.
This leads me to think that Cubase can’t handle more than X number of articulations in a short period of time, hence the issue on live playback.

If size is the issue here, I can only hope that the handling of expression maps may be improved in the future to match the possibilities of very detailed libraries. If size is not an issue, then I hope you can help me find a solution.

Thanks in advance.

10

Hello @Martin.Jirsak,

May I kindly ask for a bit of help regarding my previous messages?

Thanks !

11

Hi,

I’m not aware of any limit.

Could you share your large Expression Map, please? I would try to send the MIDI data to an external MIDI Monitor and observe if it receives an expected data.

12

Hi Martin,

Back on this topic, I believe I completely forgot to send you the expression map, sorry for that.

Anyway the issue is still here, so here is the file :
MSS Attribute - ES 2.zip (287.9 KB)

Thanks for helping me.