Feature Request: auto-convert 'Staff Below' on String staves to Divisi when importing MusicXML

[Derek_Williams]

When I import MusicXML that contains divisi strings staves that were created using ‘Add Staff Below’ in Sibelius, they are not Divisi Staves in Dorico Staff Setup, despite being bracketed as such in the score display. Also, for some reason I cannot fathom, Violin 2 always shows up as a Solo player in all four movements of the Symphony, not as a Section, despite being set as Section in Sibelius:

Even though the staff bracketing above resembles Divisi, the Change Divisi editor still shows any selected staff as a unison section player staff:

If I keep adding flows imported via MusicXML to the same Dorico project, duplicate staves are created for every string section, despite my having chosen ‘Merge with existing players where possible:

The result is a bewildering array of section names, with numbering that appears random. I end up with 8 Violin sections, 4 Viola sections, 4 Cello sections and 3 Double Bass sections as below::

• Violin IV

  Violin 4

  Violin II

  Violin 2

  Violin III

  Violin 3

  Violin 1

  Violin I

  Viola IV

  Viola II

  Viola III

  Viola !

  Violoncello IV

  Violoncello II

  Violoncello III

  Violoncello I

  Double Bass II

  Double Bass III

  Double Bass I

Screenshot of the Setup zone:

If I select individual flows, those that are used in the flow highlight, yet the score still looks ok, e.g. Flow 1 below:

The part scores are workable but are not true Divisi Staves, moreover the div. and unis. Technique Text I entered in Sibelius has not survived the transcription via MusicXML:

Unlike Strings, the Woodwind, Brass, Percussion (including Celesta with two staves) successfully share across all four of the imported flows with no duplication. However if I import only one flow individually, the import successfully creates just the five string sections (apart from Violin 2, which mysteriously always shows up as a Solo player). The problem arises only when two or more flows are added, despite being the same lineup for each.

When playing through the flows, Dorico highlights the variously duplicated players as each flow begins playback.

Currently, my workaround is going to have to be to create divisi staves at the very beginning, and then move the content of all the duplicated staves to them.

Given that the strings lineup is identical for all four flows, I am unclear as to why Dorico treats them differently. Just resolving that would be a good start.

What I am hoping for going forward is Dorico not to create new string staves for each flow as above, but to render multi-staff string section players imported via MusicXML as Divisi, so as to use the same Violin 1, Violin 2, Viola, Cello, Double Bass staves for each flow, also to keep the source div. and unis. Technique Text at the same entry points.

The consistent transcription of section player Violin 2 as a solo player appears to be a bug. **EDIT: section issue fixed by exporting with Dolet plugin in Sibelius

[jesele]

@Derek_Williams

The consistent transcription of section player Violin 2 as a solo player appears to be a bug.

Happens here too.

Jesper

[k_b]

Derek, have you tried both xml Export option in Sibelius? There is the “built in” method via File->Export and then there is the one using the dedicated Dolet PlugIn.
Another thing, as far as I have understood, xml uses the naming for instruments to guess what instrument it might be. This will always be error prone for that reason. If you have a section player in Sibelius called “Violins 2” or “Violin 2”’or “violin 2” or “Violin II” or “2nd Violins”, in the music.xml format it will just transfer those text strings and leaves the receiving application to do the guesswork.
There might be possibilities to access the music.xml file via a text editor and check on these strings, but imho it will be easier to correct these things, every time you import a xml file into Dorico. I f.e. for that reason even do not choose “Merge with existing instruments” - instead accept all new instruments, then copy them over to the right players and afterwards delete the unnecessary player.

[jesele]

Good point @k_b, it’s correct with the Dolet plugin.

Jesper

[Derek_Williams]

Thanks, I had indeed forgotten all about Dolet - which ports Rehearsal Marks, and this has also fixed the Solo player Violin 2 issue. I don’t know why Dolet hasn’t already replaced the built-in XML Exporter in Sibelius.

I had already ensured that all Strings exported from Sibelius are sections, i.e. Violin 1, Violin 2, Viola, Violoncello, Double Bass - not Solo Violin, Solo Viola, Solo Violoncello or Solo Double Bass.

After confirming with an XML editor (XCode) that the missing div. and unis. text were in fact present in the exported MusicXML file, I was also able to fix this within Dorico itself via Prefs > XML Import >Advanced >Other Notations >Text, which coincidentally made some other text become visible too, but only after I had reimported the MusicXML.

It’s amazing what one finds in the maze of all these preferences and options.

Unfortunately, the issue of Strings staff duplication remains, so for now, I am going to have to set up the divisi staves in Movement 1, and then move all the others one by one from the dozens of duplicated staves for the other three movements.

This means my feature request still stands, given the not insubstantial number of users likely to want the lower staves on String sections to be treated as divisi.

Thanks again for chiming in!

[k_b]

I still consider music.xml just as a helping hand to avoid completely re-inputting the music into another notation application. I would not raise my expectations too far, there will never be an exact 1:1 solution, because of the way different notation applications treat aspects of music.

[Janus]

@Derek_Williams

This means my feature request still stands,

The problem is how the XML is coded by the exporting program. This can cause problems when staves come and go (as you have discovered). I frequently get piano lines arriving as two separate single stave instruments. It’s trivial, if slightly irksome, to convert these back to a single two-stave instrument.

On a separate point, I see you still have all the import options selected. I would strongly recommend you deselect them all, as that gives Dorico freedom to apply its own rules (which presumably you have chosen) rather than being hidebound by the import file. You will get to a satisfactory result much quicker.

[Derek_Williams]

Thanks for replying.

The options you see checked were already selected - all I added was text, without which no staff or technique text was appearing, apart from pizz. and arco.

I tried unchecking all the XML Import options, but that has caused staff and technique next not to be imported. This also did not fix the problem of instrument duplication.

I tried to use the Move Instrument to Player in Setup, but no string players are offered in the drop menu, not even those in the current flow:

[k_b]

@Derek_Williams

I tried to use the Move Instrument to Player in Setup, but no string players are offered in the drop menu

Yes of course, because you start with a string player in the first place.
Instead: in your first flow make sure you have all the players holding the instruments, as you want it. If you have to change players or instruments, do it in the first flow.
Now, after you import your next flow via .xml import, don’t choose “Merge…”, instead let everything be imported into new players/instruments.
Next step: in Flow 2 make sure to include the players from your initial Flow. In Setup Mode you will have to select/highlight Flow 2 in the bottom panel - and select/tick/add all players from your initial flow in the left panel.
Next step: Switch to Write Mode; in Flow 2 select all music from (f.e.) your newly imported Cello system, cut or copy it and paste it into your regular Cello player system. Repeat for all other newly imported instruments.
Switch back to Setup Mode and delete the instruments that were used during import of Flow 2. You can du so, because you have cut/pasted the relevant music over.
Do the same procedure with the following flow imports.
And don’t forget @Janus’s hint: deselect all xml import options! Don’t let Dorico do the guesswork, because you will know better yourself.

[asherber]

@Derek_Williams

I tried to use the Move Instrument to Player in Setup, but no string players are offered in the drop menu, not even those in the current flow:

Section players can only hold one instrument. You’ll notice that the player card for section players doesn’t have the + sign to add additional instruments.

[Janus]

@Derek_Williams

This also did not fix the problem of instrument duplication.

It would not. That is a feature of the xml file.

(Without seeing the file itself this workaround is an assumption…)

1. Decide how many string “sections” you want. Let’s assume it is standard Vln1 Vln2 Vla Vc CB.
2. For Vln1, work out how many divisi sections there are in total (they will have arrived as different players during the import process)
3. At the start of your main Vln1 player, create a divisi (right click>staff>change divisi…) with as many divisi sections as you need.
4. In Galley View cut & paste each first violin divisi part from the imported player to the divisi stave. (Select all notes from the source player, cut and paste into the divisi line)
5. In Setup. Delete the (now empty) imported players
6. Repeat for other the string parts.

I do think this (tedious) process is the only option because Dorico really cannot distinguish, from the data in the XML, a divisi line from a completely new player.

Once you have all the notes in each player, you can recreate the divisi changes at the points in the score that you need them. And finally remove the divisi change you added at the start.

I hope this helps.

[Derek_Williams]

@Janus Many thanks for your detailed response, which I can see is a viable workaround.

What I am not understanding is why ‘add staff below’ instruments like Celesta are successfully imported without duplicates being created in subsequent flows, yet the ‘staff below’ paired staves I created for each string staff are regarded as a new instrument, despite being identical in each and every movement.

If I look at the MusicXML code (screenshots attached for Celesta and for Violins 1&2) for each of the 4 movements, the definitions are identical, indeed, if opened individually, each score looks fine and there is no duplication. The issue arises only when I add flows, and occurs only with strings staves - no other double staff instruments duplicate.

Celesta (et al.) definition:

Violins 1 & 2 XML definition:

My next MusicXML transcription from Sibelius is going to be of a full-scale opera (with a Wagnerian sized orchestra) that has 22 scenes, and the amount of labour required to make this work as flows is clearly not manageable. I really want this to work with flows, but for now, it seems to me that the quickest solution is for me not to use flows and do each movement or scene one at a time, and to wait for comment from the Dorico team as to whether they regard recognition of ‘staff below’ strings divisi staves as doable. Even if they’re not converted into Dorico divisi staves, it would be acceptable not to have all the string staves duplicated.

Of course this issue won’t arise with scores created from scratch in Dorico.

[Derek_Williams]

@k_b Thanks again for your helpful response - and there has been one from @Janus to which I have replied (above). I tried deselecting all the XML Import options, but had to reinstate Text because Dorico was not otherwise importing instructions like ‘div.’ and ‘unis.’

Be that as it may, because the works I am importing are huge and will have many flows (22 in the case of my opera), it isn’t going to be viable for now to use flows, regardless of whether I choose Merge or New for the players.

Given that the MusicXML definitions for Violins 1 & 2, Violas, Cellos and Basses and their divisi staves are word-for-word identical in the XML source, I can only hope that this will be a straightfoward option that the Dorico team can add for ‘add staff below’ instruments.

All the best.

[k_b]

If only string players imported differently: the reason might be that f.e. “Violin 1” and “Violin 1” can mean two different things.
Dorico treats a Violin 1 player quite differently from a Violin 1 section in an orchestra. One cannot have divisi…

‹part-name>Violin 1
< part-abbreviation>Vln 1
< group>score
‹instrument-name>Violin 1
‹instrument-abbreviation>Vln. 1
strings.violin
‹midi-instrument id=‘P29-I1’>
79
‹pan>-67
</ score-part>
‹part-group number=‘2’ type=‘stop’ />
‹part-group number=‘2’ type=‘start’>
‹group-symbol>bracket
< group-barline>no

[Derek_Williams]

@k_b Thanks. I realise the Dorico implementation of divisi is not going to be triggered by this import, but I would still expect it to recognise the section players as being identical in every flow. In the MusicXML source, the definitions are identical for all four movements.

Using Dolet, all the string parts are indeed section players in all four movements and import as such to Dorico, moreover, when imported as separate Dorico projects, the upper and lower bracketed staves look fine for each section, and of course there is no duplication, since there is only one flow per project.

Another possibility I am going to look at is to open the four movements as separate projects, and copy blocks successively from each to paste into the first movement, starting with a new empty flow as I add each one. Obviously that will have to preserve system information, like time signatures etc.

I’ll report back how that goes.

[Derek_Williams]

@k_b & @Janus I have tried my separate projects idea with an interesting result!

Instead of importing the 4 movements as MusicXML into successive flows of a single Dorico project, I created a separate Dorico project for each movement, by importing a single MusicXML for that movement, and then saving each one as a unique Dorico project - one at a time for each movement.

I then opened the 1st Movement and the 2nd Movement projects at the same time with the windows for each side by side so I could switch between them, and then added an empty new flow to the 1st Movement project.

I then made a System Track selection of the whole 2nd movement, copied it entirely and pasted it into this new empty flow of the 1st Movement.

Lo and behold, there is no track duplication, and every bar is correct: all key and time signature changes copy perfectly, including the 16th note anacrusis bar.

A downside is the extreme slowness of this process - so far I have experimented with only the first two movements and it’s already spinning the cartwheel for minutes on end. However, this Setup per flow remaining consistent for each, is exactly the result I wanted, which for some reason cannot be achieved by importing MusicXML source directly into successive flows within a single project.

Screenshots below:

1st Movement Project with its single flow:

Flow 2 added to the 1st Movement:

Entire 2nd movement copied from its separate Dorico project, and pasted into Flow 2 of 1st Movement:

Note that no duplicate instruments have been created, so this suggests to me that the process should also be achievable via the MusicXML import process into successive flows added within a single project.

Instrumental parts flow on as expected, e.g. Horn 1 below:

however Hide Empty Staves is not hiding the empty “staff below” divisi in the Strings parts:

[Janus]

@Derek_Williams

However, this Setup per flow remaining consistent for each, is exactly the result I wanted, which for some reason cannot be achieved by importing MusicXML source directly into successive flows within a single project.

Glad you got a good result.

My guess is that the 4 movement xml was just too complex for Dorico to decipher reliably. After all, Dorico can only treat the xml as a single flow.

Once you have the 4 separate Dorico projects, you should be able to import flows from one to another (file>import>flows…) rather than do the copy/paste.

[Derek_Williams]

Thanks again, @Janus

To clarify - the four movements had been separately exported, one at a time from Sibelius as 4 MusicXML files, each using the Dolet plugin.

When these were imported to a single Dorico project one flow at a time, duplication occurred each time another flow was added and the successive movements imported to it, whereas when individually imported to 4 separate Dorico projects and then copied over to a second, third and fourth blank flow in the 1st Movement, no duplication occurred.

I also tried copying a flow from one project to another, by exporting from the 2nd Movement project and import the flow into the 1st Movement, but that created similar duplication to what happened when I imported the raw MusicXML from Sibelius: