FR concerning notes with accidentals which span barlines

I have three requests concerning notes with accidentals which span barlines. I know that at least the first of these has already been requested.

  1. I wish Dorico had an option so that if a note with an accidental spans a barline, the accidental would be automatically restated after the barline.
  2. If the accidental is restated by using this option or by explicitly showing it in engrave mode, I wish the tie would go around the accidental and end near the notehead rather than ending before the accidental, which looks particularly bad if the tied note spans a system break.
  3. If the accidental is restated, I wish that a subsequent occurrence of a note with the same pitch in the same measure would no longer show its accidental.
    As a convert from Finale to Dorico, I am trying to enter Morceau Symphonique from RĂ©demption by CĂ©sar Franck into Dorico. This piece has so many occurrences of notes with accidentals spanning barlines that the score utilizes all three of my requests. Finale can handle half of my requests; the cautionary accidentals plug-in can force the accidentals to be restated and the ties end near the noteheads but go through the accidentals rather than around them.
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Those are pretty unusual conventions, but you’re right, there sure are a lot of them in that score. Here’s an IMSLP link for anyone interested. There are some other odd conventions in play here too. (Slurs, tuplets, etc)

Do you know if that accidental convention was common for Franck, or common for that publisher? It was unfamiliar to me anyway. What if you input notes in Finale (or exported from Dorico to Finale), used the cautionary accidentals plug-in, then imported into Dorico with MusicXML Import/Accidental Visibility checked?

Restating accidentals after barlines used to be a thing in French scores, probably so that you can always see what’s going on vertically. It’s not a feature of this piece, or of Franck in general.

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Would those additional accidentals be reflected in the parts too? Or just scores? (The parts on IMSLP are a modern re-copying that leave them out.)

The original parts are available from the archives of the New York Philharmonic Orchestra (archives.nyphil.org). They contain the additional accidentals as well.

Scanning through some other parts on IMSLP to check brought up something else that used to be a thing in French scores: rests like these. I’d advise against trying to recreate those :wink:

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Thanks for the link. Opened the Flute part and immediately noticed the impossible page turn the copyist gave them on the first page, LOL! Also the folios are backwards! I’m guessing maybe that was a printing error and the pages are juxtaposed incorrectly. There would be time for a page turn after page 13 for example but that’s in the middle of a spread. Folios are correct on some other parts, but also wrong on Vln II. Strange!

All of the accidentals in that score are noticeably smaller, for some reason. If you want the tie to go around the accidental to the notehead and are using normally sized accidentals. there might be a lot of “floating ties”. There are also going to be some really misshapen ties, such as one on 3rd line Bb.

If you’ve done this with Finale and are satisfied with the look, that’s good. I don’t think this will be a priority with Dorico though, being a more or less obsolete practice.

No worry: Dorico has an engraving option for them:

This is not exclusively French. These rests are found in old English scores, e.g. the first edition of Beethoven’s Eroica, and probably elsewhere. I remember playing from organ music that used this convention for the crotchet rest.
David

There are also the French style beams where the stem doesn’t extend through the beams, like in virtually all the Alphonse Leduc publications. Finale can do this by running the Patterson Beams plug-in, but I don’t think this is supported in Dorico either, is it? (I don’t imagine I would ever want to do this myself)

I think this must have been a quirk of their house engraver. Actually, there are at least three notes in your example where the stems do pass through the beams.
David

Maybe, but it was definitely their house style for a long time. I’m a woodwind player so I have tons of Alphonse Leduc music sitting around, and most of their classic stuff is all engraved without the stems going through the beams.

I think the OP was referring to restating accidentals on tied notes over a system break. If you restate the accidental locally, it will not show up in the parts (and vice versa for the score.).