[FR] Third Viennese School of Twelve-tone music Notation

Hello Dorico team,
I would like to suggest the integration of the Third Viennese School notation method.
This notation method has mostly:

  1. Compositional purposes
  2. Educational purposes

This method has everything typical for the traditional one (note durations, flags, articulations, techniques, barlines, time signatures, grand staff, brackets, ledger lines…) except the accidentals (the accidentals are represented by existing notes)

I’m now learning the theory behind the Third Viennese School, and I was honored to meet one of the most notable composers and educators in this theoretical method - Helmut Neumann

Here is an example of how the notation of TVS looks like:

Here is the PDF version:

TVS Score Example.pdf (120.5 KB)

The Clefs:

  1. This method uses so called E clef
  • they can start from every major stave of the staff (so, they are movable)
  • but still they are most commonly written as in the examples above.
  1. The E clef for Middle E ( above middle C - C=4) and it’s transposing (perfect 8va) version EE are capital handwritten style, but slightly smaller than those for E (E3) and EE (E2) .
  2. Respectively the lower E clef and it’s transposing (perfect 8vb) - EE, are typed style


I’m aware that this is a rare scoring method and once the composition is completed it needs to be converted into traditional notation in order to be performed.
If you decide to integrate it Dorico will, probably, be the first application that will have it as an option and playback support.

Best regards,

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Whenever I see a new notation system, I think of Gardner Read’s (1913-2005) comprehensive book Source Book of Proposed Music Notation Reforms, Music Reference Collection, no. 11 (New York, Westport, Conn., and London: Greenwood Press, 1987), 474 pp. It includes annotated examples of 391 systems proposed since around 1700. As far as I recall, only Klavarskribo (introduced in 1931) has achieved some form of permanence. See also the website The Music Notation Project: Exploring Alternative Music Notation Systems.


Hi @Marc-Andre_Roberge ,
An interesting article shared by you! :slight_smile:
Still I would like to underline that the notation method provided by me in the first post isn’t meant to replace the traditional one.
It just serves the compositional and educational needs of the Third Viennese School of Musical Sound Series.
It’s far from useful for orchestral works and hard for performing.

Greetings :slight_smile:

Marc’s point as I see it is that, as he correctly says, there are countless suggestions for new notation systems (I myself saw a YouTube video on this subject) and you haven’t yet attempted to justify why your particular one is more important than any of the others, other than the fact you personally find it interesting.


Hi @dko22,
Welcome to the topic! :slight_smile:

  1. This notation system isn’t mine, nor I find it more interesting than the others. This is just the notation system used by the Third Viennese School of Twelve-tone music.
  2. The suggestion of mine isn’t based on any personal preferences.
  • Actually I’ve never thought that I would start learning a Twelve-tone composition in depth, because I never heard something attractive to me written in this system, until last year when I heard compositions in the vein of the Third Viennese School written by friend of mine. So I decided to learn it, which means I also have to use the notation system developed for this theoretical discipline.
  • The notation system is important at certain degree where it keeps the composer, or the student focused in the specific environment needed for this style of composing,
  1. This point is a personal one. As a Dorico user, I would like to be able to score in this system in my favorite notation app.
  2. Last, but not the least, if the Dorico team will be one to decide if this suggestion will be integrated, or not.

Best wishes,

your last point is the most important one, of course. If you can make a strong case for this system then indeed the Dorico team might indeed develop it. It’s up to them to decide if you have done so :smiley:

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Marc I just finished reading a post in Linkedin I think he is talking about the same thing. Perhaps it might be of interest to you. Here’s the link. https://www.linkedin.com/in/stevegiddings?miniProfileUrn=urn%3Ali%3Afsd_profile%3AACoAAAuiRPoB22GyXrcGlTZKjokmmyYWm-I429E&lipi=urn%3Ali%3Apage%3Ad_flagship3_detail_base%3B0FMx2Td1RHKlB8shHn1atA%3D%3D

I am unable to view this as I am not registered on LinkedIn, but some research shows that there is a Third Viennese School of Psychotherapy, which is what many links point to.

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Folks who are not well tempered might need some therapy.


Hi @Marc-Andre_Roberge,

Third Viennese School of Psychotherapy has nothing to do with the Third Viennese School of Twelve-tone music.
Actually the one related to the music is also known as "Society for Sound Series Music” / „Gesellschaft für Klangreihenmusik“. The Society as an organization was founded in 2003 by maestro Helmut Neumann, and group of students of him. Still the theoretical idea behind the Third Viennese School comes from maestro Othmar Steinbauer, who was a teacher in composition of Helmut Neumann.
Of course everything in the Third Viennese School has direct connection to the Second Viennese School and Josef Matthias Hauer.
That’s the long story - short.

Best wishes,