HALion 7.5 – Same-note retrigger bug

Hi,
I’m testing the HALion 7.5 trial and considering buying it, but I’ve found a retrigger issue in multiple factory patches.

When two notes of the same pitch are placed directly next to each other, the second note may be muted or cut off. If I shorten the first note slightly, it works normally.

I first noticed this in REAPER, and the same issue also occurs in Bitwig Studio.

One example is Coliseum Bass. Removing the “Key Switch C-2” (MegaTrig) module fixes the problem completely.

This seems similar to the old HALLY-7070 issue.

Is this a known bug in HALion 7.5, and is there any workaround other than shortening every note slightly?

Thanks!

If Midi 1.0 is being used than any NoteOff message will silence anything on the same pitch. One would need NoteExpression to be activated. From the top of my head I wouldn’t know how to do that, though. Hopefully someone else will know.

I ran into that with some instruments with Sibelius years ago. Trying to remember what I did to fix it. Some things to try.

  1. Make sure the instrument is in a polyphonic mode. Make sure it’s not set to ‘mono’.

If you have an instrument that doesn’t have this toggle in the Macro editor, you can find it under Sound/Voice Management for each layer in full HALion.

  1. Some instruments have elaborate release effects that don’t happen until the key is released. This could have extra layers/voices trying to sound at the same time. I.E. A single key strike of a violin sound might actually need 2 or more voices instead of just 1. In a faster passage it could need loads of voices; so, once a ceiling is reached HALion begins to ‘steal voices’.

Steps to avoid voice stealing issues.
a. Increase the channel polyphony.
Example from a Macro Editor

Example of where to hunt if the Macro doesn’t have the option.

b. Set a higher Max Voices value in Options

It seems like I had more trouble with HALion Symphonic Orchestra than anything else. So lets look deeper into something from that library to see what’s going on. I’ll pull up the Solo Violin combi since I know that’s a pretty complicated instrument.

The first thing of notice is that it uses key-switches. It’s also one of the libraries that uses ‘release’ layers to add pre-recorded room ambience to the sound.

Either or both of these might cause cutting out or voice stealing for a number of reasons.

I’ve forgotten exactly what I did so long ago to fix it, but I do remember with Sibelius and HALion Symphonic Orchestra in particular I got all sorts of issues with HSO snuffing out notes if there wasn’t enough space between them. I kept fiddling around deeper…

If I recall correctly I noticed the problem went away if I disabled the “Ambience” layers.
image

That was a hint that I needed to make some adjustments deeper in the preset. Or, I could simply use it as is with those ‘release’ layers disabled.

Seems like it was with some of the multi triggers or polyphony settings, but I eventually found it.

For now I’ll need to go see if I can make a project that duplicates the issue, and figure out exactly where the problem was. Forgive me, I’ll revisit the thread and come back here to ‘edit this post’ once I’ve ‘remembered’.

Meanwhile, the most common problem is simply running out of voices. Next in line would be the way instruments that use release layers are set up (In the case of HSO, it’s using mega triggers to fire off the release layers). It’s also possible that mega triggers might be done in a way that key switches cause things to clamp down instead of ring out when bouncing among different articulations.

OK, years ago when I was using H5/H6 I found a fix. I can’t seem to find one with HALion 7 so far aside from the following:

  1. Make sure back to back notes of the same value do not overlap.
  2. Apply the sustain pedal (CC64 > 64) during such a retrigger action and the subsequent note doesn’t shut off. Of course you’ll need to set that controller < 64 when done.

I tried with several programs, even very simple one layer things that have no mega triggers in them. I can’t get HALion to ‘retrigger’ if a note overlaps with itself.

Thanks a lot for the detailed information! I’ll check the polyphony, voice settings, and release layers as you suggested.

In my case, removing the Key Switch C-2 / MegaTrig module makes the issue disappear completely, so I’m wondering if it might be related to the old HALLY-7070 MegaTrig bug:

ttps://forums.steinberg.net/t/megatrig-bug/94987

Thanks again for taking the time to look into it!

Thanks for checking this again! I really appreciate the workaround suggestions.

It may be indeed. Long ago I noticed that ‘some libraries’ had the issue, while others did not.

Now it seems like a more universal behavior?

I’ll keep exploring to see if I find anything different.

Hi anitan,

first of all I can confirm the behavior you described with Bitwig 6.1.1.

HALLY-7070 refers to Cubase and even with Cubase 15 it works as desired. So this is not a return of an old problem. I 'll discuss this issue with the developers and we will examine the options we have.

best regards

Gerrit Junge

Thanks very much for confirming the issue and for taking it to the developers. I really appreciate you looking into it!

In Cubase 15 on Windows 11, Fresh project, I opened a key editor, tempo 120, and entered 4 quarter notes, quantized on a 4/4 grid, middle C in succession, then overlapped the ending of the notes on beats 1, 2, and 3 with their subsequent neighbors. This caused beats 2 - 4 to sound squashed/muted instead of legato like.

I got the same behavior with several sustained instruments. This includes programs that have no mega triggers involved like the Solo Violin from HALion Factory Contnet, Sonic Selection, and Sonic 3 Factory Content. Of course it was present with Solo Violin Combi from HALion Symphonic Orchestra that does involve some pretty complicated mega trigger logic.

If I length quantize or manually adjust to make sure the subsequent overlapping middle C notes do not overlap, there is no auditable issue.

I did try to make some LUA scripts that might correct whatever the problem could be but was unsuccessful. For some reason HALion doesn’t seem to be properly tracking the note ID of multiple notes of the same frequency sounding at the same time?

I will come back to edit this soon, and attach a sample project.

I’ll test it with Sonic too, which I have not done yet.

Here is a demo project produced in Cubase 15 on Windows 11.
Stolen Notes.zip (259.3 KB)

Screen Shot

I repeat the issue with 4 different Violin Programs from 4 different libraries that shouldn’t involve mega trigs, over two instances of HALion 7 and two instances of Sonic 7. Some instances are hosted in the rack, and some as tracks.

I get the same behavior in both HALion and Sonic. It happens both when hosted in the Rack and as an Instrument Track.

With overlapping Middle C quarter notes, beats 3 - 4 get ‘cut short’ and sound clipped. They should be doubling voice count for a moment and sounding ‘legato’.

Thanks a lot for taking the time to test this so thoroughly and even make a demo project. I really appreciate it!

In “normal” mode a “Note off of the same pitch” will act in HALion and HALion Sonic similar to a “All Notes off” for the same pitch to avoid hanging notes and other unwanted effects especially with MIDI Modules, Scripting, …

Therefore your observation is correct and it’s the expected result.

To get rid off the “All Notes off” behaviour you have to enable the “PolyKeyMode” in the Options page and you will get your desired behaviour.

best regards

Gerrit

Thanks for looking into this and providing the solution.