Has anyone successfully solved the riddle of getting a 7.1.4 group into the Atmos Renderer?

[VV1]

I have come upon the issue that it seems some others have with routing to the Atmos renderer. I too would like the sends for 3D reverbs to return with front and back height channels.

I’ve been trying to glue together a 7.1 (bottom layer) and a 4.0 (top layer) by making a 7.1.4 group that uses the sends to split to those busses, then route those into the renderer.

I am having 2 points of trouble here though:

1. I do not see how to route the sends to the proper channels (how to take the top layer of the 7.1.4 by itself to the 4.0 for instance). The send panner does not let me specify which channels are going where. I find it really odd when digital routing is more convoluted and limited than actual patching in the physical world.

2. The Atmos renderer doesn’t want to accept my 4.0 group as either an object or a bed.

Is there a solution for this?

[MattiasNYC]

Here’s what I wrote earlier:

Nuendo 11 Atmos "Object Beds"

Yes. What I did was as I said send from the source mono audio track to a group track. On that group I used Stratus 3D and the group is 7.1.4. Then I can make that group into an object. Because the source audio track is panning correctly it’ll feed signal just fine into the group and Stratus show how the input signal follows perfectly in all channels. The renderer then shows the same signal following correctly: [image]

There was an error which was fixed with the latest version of Nuendo. Is what I described not working for you?

Perhaps I should ask why you are splitting it into a top layer and a bottom one. Is it because you don’t have a 3D verb?

Anyway, I would think that if you create a quad group and you route it into a 7.1.4 group/bus you should be able to elevate it, no? And then front / rear should follow?

[VV1]

So, you are saying I should be able to simply add the 7.1.4 group track as an object in the Atmos renderer?
This doesn’t work over here. The 7.1.4 group does not appear as an input in the dropdown menu for objects, nor will it connect if I select “make objects from selected tracks”.

I am on the latest version:
11.0.20

[shauli]

If you do not have a 3D reverb, you can put a anymix upmix plug on a 7.1.2 group

[VV1]

I do have a 3D reverb, which is the primary reason I am trying to get a proper 7.1.4 group going to the Atmos renderer. The only reason for separating top and bottom layers is because the renderer has a limit for beds which goes to 7.1.2, so I tried splitting my group into two beds.

[MattiasNYC]

@VV1

So, you are saying I should be able to simply add the 7.1.4 group track as an object in the Atmos renderer?
This doesn’t work over here. The 7.1.4 group does not appear as an input in the dropdown menu for objects, nor will it connect if I select “make objects from selected tracks”.

I used “make object from selected” if I remember correctly (I’m in front of PT right now and can’t check until later tonight).

Looking at your second image I see the 7.1.4 group as an object, and I see you don’t have a source track for it. But it wouldn’t be it’s own source, right? Above it the “Bed” is “7.1.2 music bed” and it has a separate source, “Atmos Bed”. I’m assuming you’ve routed the latter into the former.

So if you haven’t done any routing into the “7.1.4 group” then I wouldn’t expect to see an input. I also wouldn’t expect to see one if you’re sending to it from a bunch of different sources, since choosing one “source track” wouldn’t really be of value.

In other words: Did you try using it despite not seeing an input in the “source track” drop-down? Just try sending to the group, pan into it from the source, and see what happens. I think that’s what I did, but I’ll check later.

[MattiasNYC]

@VV1

The 7.1.4 group does not appear as an input in the dropdown menu for objects, nor will it connect if I select “make objects from selected tracks”.

Just tried again and it works for me on 11.0.20. Make sure you have created the group as 7.1.4 and also selected an output with the same layout before you try to “make object from selected”.

[VV1]

Matthias,
I have read many other posts by you, and they seem very cogent, but I must say that your reply here is not coherent.

“Looking at your second image I see the 7.1.4 group as an object, and I see you don’t have a source track for it. But it wouldn’t be it’s own source, right?”

The group itself is the source. That is what needs to be routed into the Renderer.
It doesn’t matter what is routed into the group, the group is the “object” to connect.
I have a 7.1.4 group which, as I explained, I selected, then used “Create Object from Selected tracks” under “Functions”.

It (the 7.1.4 group) is not connected as an object here (in the photo); you are confusing the “Name” column with the “Source Track” column. The name is not a connection, it’s just a name, and I can write anything in there.

“Above it the “Bed” is “7.1.2 music bed” and it has a separate source, “Atmos Bed”.”

“7.1.2 music bed” is the just the name for the Atmos Bed group. The name is just a label, not another track, group, bed or object etc.

So, check this next photo and take a look at the “Object ID” column on the right:

There is no connected object for the slot named “7.1.4 Group”. It is an empty slot, and as you can see the “Source Track” dropdown menu does not show an option to connect my group track (named “7.1.4 group”).

So, testing even further I find that none of the following tracks will connect as an “Object”:
7.1.4 group
5.1 group
7.1.4 audio
7.1 audio
5.1 audio

We have to go all the way down to “Stereo” to create an accepted “Object” with a connected “Source Track”:

So this leads me back to my original question about splitting a group to get a proper 7.1.4 input into the renderer.

It looks like it would have to be done by splitting the output (of a 7.1.4 group) into at least three components:
A 7.1 group which feeds into the bottom channels of the 7.1.2 bed and,
Two stereo groups fed as objects and placed in the 3D panner to be the Ltf/Rtf and Ltr/Rtr pairs of the “.4”.

[MattiasNYC]

@VV1

you are confusing the “Name” column with the “Source Track” column. The name is not a connection, it’s just a name, and I can write anything in there.

Yeah you’re right about that. Sometimes I don’t brain good.

But anyway, it works on my end. I set up the following:

A 714 Output set to ‘main output’ in connections window.
A 712 Group made into a bed in the renderer
A 714 Group to be made into an object - this has output set to the main output
An audio track with tone.

Check images.

I’m thinking the key step you may have missed was assigning the group an output of the required channel format before making it into an object in the… uh… AtmoswhateverthewindowiscalleditsaysADMauthoringforDolbyAtmosonitIguess…

[VV1]

Sorry, but I’ve already done that (set the outputs to the main 7.1.4 outs) with all of the above mentioned tracks (groups and audio) and it doesn’t work, nor would it even make sense logistically: none of the tracks going into the render even need an output selected (on the VST console) simply because they act as send outs going into the renderer and this makes the console outputs mute, so if it were a requirement inside Nuendo as such it would be nonsensical from an engineering perspective and is probably only extant as some vestigial design for the routing.

Anyway, to be sure I tried it all again from scratch:
a brand new file in Nuendo 11.0.2, creating all the proper outputs and tracks for monitoring etc. and still the authoring for Dolby Atmos will not accept my 7.1.4 (routed to my 7.1.4 output) as an Object source.
Doesn’t work here.

[MattiasNYC]

@VV1

they act as send outs going into the renderer and this makes the console outputs mute, so if it were a requirement inside Nuendo as such it would be nonsensical from an engineering perspective and is probably only extant as some vestigial design for the routing.

I’m aware that this doesn’t appear to make sense. I think it’s just that the sends follow outputs as far as available channel configurations go, which is normal I think. Vestigial design… one way of looking at it. Seem ‘clunky’ and I know some have had opinions about the lack of metering when it’s done this way.

As for your actual problem and it working for me: I don’t know what to say then. It just works for me I guess. What’s your system? I’m on Win 10 Pro.

Do you want me to send you just a small .npr to see if my project opens fine on your system? Not sure why it would, but you never know…

[VV1]

Sure! Do you want me to PM you an email address?

[MattiasNYC]

That’ll work.

[VV1]

So I opened your file and indeed, the 7.1.4 group you have is routed as an Object in the renderer! I noticed that you had the renderer on the output bus instead of a group, so I changed that on my version to test it and it still does not work there.
I ended up gutting your file (you have so many outputs!) and keeping just your 7.1.4 object bus. I took the renderer off of the 7.1.4 output and put it on a group and put it on a group and it retained the previous 7.1.4 group as an object! Weird.

I will do some testing on it tomorrow and see what I can do with it- if other tracks can be properly routed as objects.

I did get a bad sign on exit though as the program hung. I had to “end task” to shut down properly.

[Wheels]

Not sure if this helps but I wasn’t able to make an object out of my group either by selecting “Create Object out of Selected Tracks” but if I created an object bus by using “Add Objects” and then assigning the input of the object to the Group manually it works fine. HTH.

[kenobi1]

I’m able to create 11 objects from a 7.1.4 group but thats still not what is needed. Like the OP described I need to split a 7.1.4 bus (or even a 7.1.4 audio track) into 7.1 bed plus a quad of 4 objects for height.

I have made music mixes in 7.1.4 wav (some instrument mics panned to the heights in addition to the floor channels) and now in film post mixing stage I want to assign the .4 heights to objects so that its not summed to 2 in a bed ie downmix 7.1.4 to 7.1.2

If only the send panning could specify front or back heights, but they cant. Anyone find a solution to this? I’m in N12 now btw.

[Rajiv_Mudgal]

I am not able to follow but I am having no issues with 7.1.4 group/object assignment.
On Stratus 3D you can simply mute the 7 ground channels and only have 4 above.

[kenobi1]

Thanks for your reply.
Consider a multichannel wav 7.1.4 of a mix on an audio track.
Using your method the only way I can think of breaking it up into a 7.1 bed and 4 objects is to duplicate the audio track including the event:

Audio Track A: the last 4 are muted and then its bussed to the atmos 7.1.2 bed bus.
Audio Track A duplicated: the first 8channels muted then assigned to an object via the atmos editor.

It seems a bit cumbersome, especially if there needs to be more than one multichannel wav mix (Audio Track B, C, D etc) playing at a time. Each one would need duplicating.

An elegant solution, that’s apparently not possible, would be to:

1. make a 7.1.4 group to send all multi wavs to
2. make a 7.1 bed group and assign a direct out from the 7.1.4 group to this group for channels 1-8 (this is possible). In Mixconvert turn Heights to down to 0. Assign this to an atmos bed.
3. make a 4.0 quadro group , send the last 4 channels of the 7.1.4 group to that. But this is NOT possible.

I have found a child output called Top Quadro but when the output of the quadro group is assigned to this output it is not available to the atmos objects.

[MattiasNYC]

It seems that send panning doesn’t work when the target is the “Top Quadro”, but it does work using other targets.

[Rajiv_Mudgal]

Of course if you have a lots of 7.1.4 multichannel wav which means you have a very special requirement.
usually what we do or get are five 7.1.2 beds (Nuendo supports multiple Atmos Beds)
There are valid reasons because Atmos objects are rendered at a lower quality (That may change in future)
This is how our Template is structured (rough about way as they are project specific)
and Tops are not used much except for flyby’s and Atmospheric effects

Dialogue
DX (Source - Mono)
VO (Source - Mono)
ADR (Source - Mono)
DIA Verb Early Reflections - Fx Bus
DIA Room Reverb - Fx Bus
DIA Stem (9.1.6) (7.1.2) (5.1) - Group Bus

Foley
FOL (Source - Mono, Stereo)
FOL Verb Early Reflections - Fx Bus
FOL Room Reverb - Fx Bus
FOL Stem (9.1.6) (7.1.2) (5.1) - Group Bus

Sound FX
SFX (Source - Mono, Stereo)
SFX Verb - Fx Bus
SFX Delay - Fx Bus
SFX Object (7.1.4-Birds/Plane/FlyBy)
SFX Stem (9.1.6) (7.1.2) (5.1) - Group Bus

Ambience
AMB (Source - Stereo, 5.1, FOA)
AMB Verb - Fx Bus
AMB Delay - Fx Bus
AMB Object (7.1.4-Wind/Thunder)
AMB Stem (9.1.6) (7.1.2) (5.1) - Group Bus

Music
MX (Source - Stereo, 5.1)
MX Reverb - Fx Bus
MX Delay - Fx Bus
Music Stem (9.1.6) (7.1.2) (5.1) - Group Bus