Headphones

Dorico
1

One of the final pieces in the setup puzzle I’m putting together is headphones which became necessary w work at home employment and a student

Based on reviews I ordered the beyerdynamic dt900 pro

Not sure if it’s my ears or something in the output settings but a piece I’m working on for string orchestra has less separation in the voices than on small inferior speakers or an old Sony headphones that unfortunately are on their last legs

The music is a good test piece re it is fugato moving at a good clip. It’s being played in Noteperformer w cinematic studio strings both section and solo

Even on my car stereo the parts are more distinguishable than on these new headphones

They are running straight off of the MAC headphones jack and I’m wondering if that might be part of the problem

2

One thing I would do (as a test) is pan one instrument hard left and another hard right and listen. Then reverse the panning and listen again. Eliminating possibilities like somehow you have it summing to mono or one side has something going on. Nice headphones!

3

Thanks I will try that

I just spent more time switching between the new and old headphones and also the speakers

The most noticeable thing is basses and cellos are more of a muddle on the new headphones which though they are open backed it feels like sound is more contained than I expected

One of the audiophiles who reviewed them said he considered them “semi-open-backed”. I think that was how he put it

My expectations could just be high and also my ears not so good w certain frequencies

The sound coming from the Sony pair is a little thinner is how I would interpret the difference, but the lines are definitely clearer

The beyerdynamic feels more like an echo chamber

It could also be reverb which I had turned way down but not off in both Dorico and np. I’ll try turning it off in both and see what happens

Otherwise I return these and try something else

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4

I can’t remember if I’ve listened to those or not, but they are often referred to in reviews as “semi-open,” which may not have quite as an expansive soundstage as some other “open” cans. Yours is 48 Ω? A headphone amp might help, but I would think the Mac could drive those fine. Is it possible they just have a flatter frequency response than you are used to, as they are more for a studio than for fun listening, and you’re accustomed to something where the sound is a little more colored?

For a little less money, the Massdrop x Sennheiser HD6xx is supposed to have a great soundstage. I have a good friend, who’s an audio nut and fantastic saxophonist, that runs those off a Bottlehead amp he built as his main listening headphones. For a bit more, I used to own the Focal Elex and found it to have a fairly wide soundstage too. (I since sold those and upgraded to some other Focals, which I love.)

You can try some EQ, or adding a different DAC, but basically it sounds like you want headphones that maximize the soundstage. Your Beyers have a strong reputation as great cans, but maybe aren’t the best choice for you if soundstage is the most important feature. There’s always a trade off between timbre, soundstage, and clarity IMO, but if soundstage is the determining factor for you maybe try some open Sennys, AKG K702, HIFIMAN Sundara or Anandra, etc.

(I’m a bit of a headphone nut myself so totally happy to geek out on the subject :joy:)

5

Thanks I may have to look into some of those

It’s for working through passages that I need headphones so I don’t mind investing in something better

The specs on this one

Frequency response . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 - 40,000 Hz
Nominal impedance . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 48 Ω

What happens with the piece I’m working on is the bass and cello parts are muddy when I listen through the dt900

Oddly it’s exactly where the cello/bass lines should stand out from the rest but they are pretty much buried

I even doubled the cello and bass sections with solo instruments and it didn’t help

The old Sony pair (MDR-7506) are a much more open design but the sound is pretty thin by comparison

I’ll listen to some other scores to see what happens there

6

I’m listening now and maybe it’s a different problem

On the beyerdynamic I realized I’m hearing a lot more of what’s happening in the violin/viola parts so I thought it might just be a matter of balancing the dynamics but that didn’t work

Not sure if that means anything

But also

When I hold the headphones away from my ears a half inch the bass/cello parts are significantly clearer

There’s also an intermittent hiss like wind noise on a mic that I notice more with the beyerdynamic

Maybe tomorrow I’ll set up some old mackie studio speakers that are very clean and see what happens

Unfortunately for everyday use it has to be headphones so recommendations are appreciated

7

Hi. I have the Beyerdynamic DT990 pro headphones. They re superb. But to come to the point, headphones have varying impedance, and Beyerdynamic are one of the few companies that make pro studio headphones with different impedances. I have the limited edition 80 ohm model, running off a Universal Audio Volt interface. The 80 ohm impedance is perfect. The normal studio impedance for this set is 250 ohms.

So, your DT900 is 48 ohm impedance. That’s very low but it may be inappropriate for the Mac headphone jack output. 48 ohms is suitable for devices like phones.

I don’t know what output impedance the Mac headphone jack is as I do not have Mac, but I’d say you have an impedance mismatch issue. I do not think this is a Dorico matter.

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By the way, I’d recommend an external USB audio interface anyway. You will be much happier with the quality. Mac audio out is just a cheap chip, as far as I know.

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9

@bluekayak88, since buying stuff is so much fun, I’ll throw one more thing “into the mix”: an external headphone amp. A good one, like the Apogee Groove, offers considerably greater clarity and overall sound quality than the Mac’s onboard DAC. Could be well worth considering (though then you’d be back to square one in your trials.)

P.S. — @Andro is spot-on about impedance matching being important. Together with, as he and I both observed, a better DAC / amp, you’ll be able to get a great solution.

One big caveat: our ears get strongly conditioned to the system through which we listen. Sometimes better gear sounds “bad” at first because it’s simply different in sound and/or actually better, so that shortcomings in the source (for all of us here, our Docirco VSTs) are better revealed.

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10

I’ve been a bit of a headphone geek for years. I’m not sure how far down the rabbit hole you want to go, but there’s a ton of info out there and it’s just about equal parts science, snake oil, and personal preference. On the science side, every headphone is tuned to try to match a desired frequency chart by the manufacturer. Obviously material expense, manufacturer’s goals, and manufacturer’s skills all play a role. Here’s a graph from DIY Audio Heaven showing how we hear various deviations in frequencies:
descriptors2kl-1

There’s a bit of a divide between realistic and idealistic headphones. Realistic headphones, like studio headphones, attempt to present the music in a way that’s perceived without any additional coloring (this isn’t actually completely flat as manufacturers compensate for how our ear shape applies gain to certain frequencies), while idealistic headphones try to match a specific frequency curve such as Harman, V-shaped, etc. Many people actually find studio headphones to be a bit boring and flat to listen to, especially at first as @judddanby pointed out. Studio headphones are not attempting to match a curve that we perceive as “musical,” but are intended to be a realistic baseline for engineers to mix to, and musicians to record to.

It’s ok if you find you don’t actually like “studio” headphones! Your Beyers are studio headphones, so if you aren’t used to listening to flat headphones, you may find them lacking excitement or musicality. That’s by design. Maybe try some aiming for a Harman neutral, slight V-shape, warmer, etc.

When shopping, be as specific as possible about your needs. For example, I do a lot of transcribing, so I’m often wearing my main headphones for long periods of time. That means no IEMs or headphones that weigh over 450g. I also wear glasses, so the ear pads have to be comfortable and the clamping pressure can’t smash my frames between my ear and head. Soundstage is important to me for transcribing ensembles, as tracking where a certain instrument appears in the mix is helpful. (I have some good closed-back and IEMs for travel too.)

I’m happy to recommend other headphones or DACs, but the best way is to test some out if possible. I have no idea where you are located, but if you can get to a store where you can listen to a variety of headphones using the same few reference tracks, I’ve found that to be really helpful.

3 Likes
11

What do you base that on?

A quick google suggests that the built-in DAC chip in M-series Macs is highly rated, FWIW.

The recent ifixit teardown of the Macbook Pro 2021 revealed the internal DAC to be the ‘Cirrus Logic CS42L84A-CWZ Audio Codec’ and also ‘Texas Instruments SN012776B0 Audio Amplifiers’, to power the internal speakers and the headphone jack."

12

Here’s a potentially helpful piece that suggests, as @benwiggy does, that recent Macs have pretty decent onboard audio:

Truth be told, I do the vast majority of my listening at the (M1 Max Studio) computer through monitors (Focal Shape 65s / Sub One), so weigh my thoughts accordingly.

I have gone through stretches when I would work at Dorico more on my 2020 M1 MacBook Air. Given that my (pretty decent-sounding) open-back Sennheiser 600 HDs have an impedance of 300Ω, together with whatever quality the headphone jack in that slightly older Mac outputs, I was significantly happier listening through the Apogee Groove. (Working on an orchestral piece at the time.)

Nothing brings out the thoughts, personal experiences, opinions, and reviews quite like questions about gear purchases! At the end of the day your ears, when given a bit of time to adjust as you compare, and when focused in the very helpful ways @FredGUnn descibes, will tell you which to go with. (And, especially if you wear glasses, don’t over look that long-wearing comfort factor!)

Happy hunting, @bluekayak88!

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Sincere apologies - my condemnation of mac audio chip is based on the mac I had 12 years ago! Stupid of me.

Yes the newer chips are excellent - so that’s clearly not an issue.

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My MacBook Pro is a only few months old

thank you to all for all of the input here I will spend some time reading through it

I’m a swimmer so yesterday I even spent an hour doing ear washes to rule that out

I think the most significant thing is that these headphones sound great when I hold them away from my ears half an inch, basically opening things up

It’s also a dense orchestration (and 7 string instruments from the same library) but in my mind that makes it a good test case

It does sound different between two sets of headphones and even the small Bose speakers and car stereo have a little more clarity

When I have time I will find a way to plug in my old studio monitors and see how things sound

15

What I was hoping for with better headphones was to hear more air between the sections

With the 900 it feels like they’re crammed inside a small and echo-y room

I also turned off all of the reverb in Dorico and NP down to 25% re the bypass reverb option rendered it silent

16

You could try a plugin like this:

Jesper

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17

I just plugged both headphones straight into the Roland keyboard and same impression

Im no audiophile in sense of understanding things but the 900 has less clarity

Less sound coming out of the old Sony set but clearer

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Of interest, re Mac headphone impedance specs:

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19

I also think it is worth reiterating and emphasizing what @FredGUnn mentioned. Just because headphones are marketed for pro studio use, does not mean they are necessarily superior to other headphones not so designated. Studio phones have certain frequency response curves that audio engineers want when mixing, and these characteristics, as @FredGUnn says, are realistic (but not flat). This is when it comes down to personal preference. Some people don’t like them for general listening.

There’s also a pro view that one should not mix with headphones anyway, but only on studio monitors. That’s the rabbit hole next door to this one. Since you are obliged to use phones, this rabbit hole need not be explored! :slight_smile:

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20

I have for years now used a combination that I have found to be most natural sounding: Sennheiser HD600 with HD650’s cable (important, sold separately) connected to Steinberg UR-22C with USB3. In my orchestra work we record a lot (all our concerts are recorded and we do a lot of CD’s), and the producer uses Sennheiser HD8xx series, earlier they used HD600’s. Essentially, the sound I hear at home after the concert is very close to the sound I hear live when playing.

I have also (had) HD700, HD 580, HD 650 and Apple iPod pro max, they are not the same although pro max’s when connected via cable (i.e. uncompressed) are quite close.

I think separation of instruments and spacing is an orchestration issue more than audio issue. And in any case you can not control what others use, so different reference devices is always good.

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