hide cautionary clefs, keys and time signature

Please see the scores of the Minuet-Trio movements (usually the 2nd or 3rd movement) in the four-movement works (symphonies, string quartets, piano sonatas, etc.) written by Haydn, Mozart, and Beethoven. It is the convention to have a time signature at the beginning of the Trio part, and not to have cautionary time signature at the end of the Minuet part (But cautionary key signature is placed in most cases if Trio part has different key signature).

For example.
Mozart, Eine Kleine Nachtmusik, K. 525, 3rd movement.
Breitkopf & Härtel Edition, IMSLP #01776, Youtube Link

Haydn, Symphony No.104, 3rd movement,
Universal Edition(1967), IMSLP #31786, Youtube Link

Beethoven, Piano Sonata No.1, Op.2 No.1 , 3rd movement
Henle Verlag(1976) IMSLP #621777, Youtube Link

Such notations are common in Minuet-Trio movements in the classical-era works and are by no means rare.
What do you think about these, @dspreadbury ?

3 Likes

I think there is certainly an argument to be made that we should support this kind of appearance as part of the work that still remains to be done on handling items like clefs, time and key signatures in connection with repeat structures.

7 Likes

Thank you for a reply.
I’m looking forward to future developments.

Is possible to force a time signature to appear at the beginning of any measure, or before an initial upbeat, within a single flow, even if there has been no actual change of meter? I’m thinking of sets of variations, in which it is traditional to place a time signature at the beginning of each variation but not at the end of the previous one, a case somewhat like the one given above by tomotomo2 regarding dance movements with trios sections. (Sorry if this has been discussed; I did look over this long thread to some extent.)

The current version of Dorico does not have an ability to hide a cautionary time signature in the end of a system. However, there is a workaround using Coda.

1 Like

For variations it is simpler to use a separate flow for each.

This is as simple as adding a time signature wherever you want it. It’s the hiding of cautionaries that is more difficult.

Thank you for the information, everyone.

I hate to bring this old chestnut up again, but I’m currently working on an anthology of pieces that alternates between plainsong and figural music. I’m using imported graphics for the plainsong.

At the end of figural verses, I often get cautionary time sigs for the next verse, which is both unnecessary and confusing, given that there’s a plainsong verse inbetween.

I could use separate flows, except that I’m using them at the ‘higher’ structural level for each piece, with flow heading, First Masters, etc.
I’m therefore using Codas, which is the standard workaround.

Here’s a suggestion: An Engraving/Notation Option to allow or prevent cautionaries after a final barline?

3 Likes

Yeah, but then cue the chorus of protests about that limitation!

2 Likes

Just my 10p (as a Brit),
These, after all, are just cautionary/courtesy indications which don’t change the music.
Is there any deep reason why they can’t be allowed to be hidden either in the various option menus or in properties?
(After all, we’re not forced to add cautionary accidentals to individual notes.)

3 Likes

I have to do the same thing but for key signatures in virtually all my etude and pattern exercises for students. I use Flows for each separate exercise and then Codas to hide the unnecessary cautionary key sigs. When an exercise is modulating according to a pattern the standard is to not show cautionary key sigs.

Probably most everyone here has a copy of the Hanon studies laying around. Flip to any of the exercises that progress major then relative minor through the cycle of fourths. There’s not a cautionary key sig to be found in the entire book.

This is really the default style for these type of exercises so it would make sense for Dorico to simply allow key sigs to be hidden IMO.

5 Likes

It is a real pain as this function is still not available on Dorico 4. Daniel, you where asking why do people need it?
Just one example. I am creating a worksheet. Each flow has hist theme and name. Anyway on one single particular flow, I would like to create few exercises - each line with different time signatures without cautionary time signatures on the end of each line. Instead of hiding a cautionary time signature, Dorico makes me to allow the next flow on a same page, what creates unwelcome flow headings. If I turn flow headings off, all my flows are losing their automatic numeration and names. Does it have to be so complicated to hide an item? It seams a simple “hide” function will be avoided in Dorico concept as far as possible making all the users to search for complicated and quite unintuitive solutions. Is there some solution in my case? Please help to understand. Do I miss something? And one more thing to mention…this discussion started in 2016. 8 years are gone…Hm

1 Like

You are using me for a straw man based on something I said about the program in 2017?
Surely you can do better than that. :laughing:

I am sorry, I didn’t understand what you mean under “you can do better than that”. There is no need to read every single post starting 2016 in order to ask again for this feature. I just wondering why there is still no solution…

Thank you so much, Marc…I discovered your post after I wrote mines…Very helpful. I hope one day Dorico will be able to do it in more easy and convenient way

1 Like