I think a lot is getting lost in nomenclature here. Using the word “bus” for example without clarifying if you’re talking about a Cubase or PT bus is confusing. And it really isn’t as odd as it may seem. I can literally only think of one thing that Pro Tools does that Cubase 12 and earlier didn’t do (not sure about 13), and that’s allowing for a track (audio/Aux) to choose it’s input (whereas Cubase only let you choose a destination).
In Pro Tools everything is transported and / or summed using a bus. If you want to get a signal from an audio track to an Aux you need to choose a bus as a destination for the audio track and an input in the Aux track. If you set your PT system up with outputs then if you choose an output the signal will go straight to that output. If you want to control the output then you create a Master Fader and choose the output. But you never get anything “in” that Master Fader unless you have a signal going to the output that the master fader is controlling.
In Cubase it really just works out to using an Output Bus with an output assigned to it, and then you again just output to that Output Bus. And then you end up with more or less the same thing.
The way you drew that diagram the second item makes it look like “C Drums M” is on exactly the same “level” as the individual drum tracks. They all feed into the “line” that goes into “C Drums”. If “C Drums” is a group track then all drum tracks and “C Drums M” can all just have it as a destination, and “C Drums M” can be a group track. Groups can feed groups. And then “C Drums” can feed “All Drums” which can also be a group track.
In the Cubase example on top you would do that by using multiple destinations using “Direct Output” in summing mode (as others pointed out).
I really don’t see what you need to do that’s odd though.
Maybe you should post a link to the video so we can see for ourselves what he’s doing. I’ve got a couple of decades on PT so…
I know Jaycen very well
This based on the ABCD buss off the SSL
He kinda got that from me when I working @ Larabee,Anyway you can achieve the same principle
by using groups the using a send,Thats what I started doing when when moved from the console
I have a video on puremix kinda explain this.What its doing is parallel compression
anybody knows my work been doing this for years.Hope that helps a lil
Best Jean-Marie
You explained that perfectly Mattias, thanks a lot for that! All I could say about it (not being a PT user) is Master Fader operate “on a BUS level”, this is how I felt I could explain the concept.
I could tell that diagram was technically wrong, in fact that “arrow” in my mind was not actually a routing to that bus, it was kind of like an “interference” to that signal going through that bus. Again, not technically correct.
I think a link to a video of how JJ operates might be pointless because my concern is actually trying to emulate the routing of PT Master Fader. But just as a reference, here’s a link to a section of his masterclass explaining drums processing:
He actually explains the reason why he uses certain plugins, never mentioning his routing in this masterclass, probably because he’s taking that for granted having always used PT for mixing.
Thanks a lot for all your information. I think I’m gonna give a try to the Direct Routing in summing mode and do some tests to see if that sounds the same in Cubase as in PT.
One quick question Mattias: Where is the signal going out from a Master Fader in PT? Indirectly, my question is: Where do I have to route my “C Drums M” in Cubase, so it behaves like a Master Fader in PT?
Hello Jean-Marie, thanks a lot for your response, it’s an honor being replied by a multi-platinum mixer/producer with an amazing career.
Are we talking about the same person here? The only mixing engineer I know using ABCD buss (with 4 different compressing characters) is Michael Brauer. Never heard of Jaycen doing that kind of parallel compression.
Actually it was a very common practice in NYC.I picked up that technique sitting in a Mike Barbiero session.I started first on kicks and snare because in Virginia Beach we didn’t have all the outboard gear
So i had to come up with something different…I remember the ABC buss trick and from there i started to expand.I showed Dave Pensado ,then he explained it to Jaycen.Jaycen developed his own thing.
With Cubase or Nuendo there is a different audio engine
The headroom is different, you see you wouldn’t need to use it as much.Drums just sound different actually the landscape of the mix sounds different …I started messing with Steinberg because of the Robin Thicke project.From there been experimenting.So try the JJ technique but i believe you will come up with something even better.
Best JMH
Short answer: The bus is either A) connected in the i/o setup window’s “Bus” section to an output (outputs are defined in the same window’s “Outputs” section which shows interface outs), or B) it is ‘chosen’ as an input to something else - an audio track or an Aux track for example.
You can think about ‘the bus’ as a floating wire that can sum things. You can connect things “to” the ‘top’ of that wire, and at the end you can either choose a destination (“A” above) or you can select the end of the wire as an input at one or more other points. The Master Fader as you pointed out simply sits ‘on’ that wire, at the end of it, taking the summed signal and gives you some controls over it (inserts, fader).
When I think of Cubendo I think of a “bus” as always having controls associated with it. Functionally, practically, a Group Track and Output Bus in Cubendo are quite similar in this sense (or identical).
The way it looks to me - which I just tried in PT - is that all that he’s doing is that he’s extending the amount of inserts he has in a row by using that Master Fader on the bus. All that seems to be happening is that the outputs of the drum tracks in question is into the “C DRUMS” bus which has a bunch of inserts on it (using the Master Fader), and then that bus becomes the input of “C DRUMS” Aux track which in turn has more inserts on it. It just looks weird but to me it just looks like a bunch of processing in series.
All you would have to do is ‘stack’ group tracks if this is what you wanted to do. Your first group track would be “C DRUMS M” (to which you would output your drum audio tracks), and you would have it go to a second group called “C DRUMS”, and from there to “ALL DRUMS”. That’s it.
It’s works a lil more efficient more energy but truthfully working in Steinberg you really dont need it.Just did A/B test just coming out of Nuendo and Pro tools.The headroom is huge.Its a bit of route that kinda matches the energy.I hope that explains it a lil Also give more options doesn’t hurt
Best JMH
Somewhat expected as you operate with two different output busses and Cubase can export only one output bus per file. In Cubase/Nuendo we need to mix together everything we want to hear in the resulting file BEFORE any output busses.
BTW - how did you get to use the same hardware channels on two different output busses? EDIT: Got it.
Well I tried to be cute but the Dumb Dumb button was on auto LOL
using the same outputs figuring or hoping it would lead to the promise land
and the Dah button miraculously appeared after I thought about it and tried to print.Still love the concept.There others options to achieve but wanted to feel my oats on this idea
LOL
Not with multiple master outs from what i see asking Greg Ondo if multiple same master outs are available everything is leading to group outs
In Protools stereo master out even with using a buss sounds different
Steinberg just sound huge
Doesn’t mean ProTool sucks just a different tool
Yes indeed, in the case where you have an audio interface with a single stereo output, there is little use in creating several Master Buses, unless you use the MB with a suite of processors, you can then configure various MBs in function of various musical genres and we choose the one we need. Personally, I prefer to use a group for this and leave the MB free. A second MB can also be used as an effects channel or as a group without a direct output and which can be assigned as a Send to any group or track. Again, I don’t know if this would really be useful.
Configuring multiple stereo outputs is generally valid with an audio interface with multiple stereo outputs, otherwise I don’t know…
You can use disconnected output busses as a target for mixdown. Using Sends and/or DirectRouting you could e.g. export a full song on Stereo Out and the instrumental version on the other output bus in one go.
This can also be achieved by using Group tracks but sometimes it might look better to have an output there. Just to keep a better overview.
Another idea is to use a second output bus on a virtual audio cable (or loopback device) to send a signal to another application. Streaming via OBS comes to mind.
