How can I select MULTIPLE notes in Engrave Mode? I’ve since figured out most of the problem below, but have to select notes one at a time in order to hide the stems.
I’m trying to hide the stems from a certain flow in Dorico Pro, Version 3.1.10.1032. When I look that up at the link below, it tells me the following:
In Engrave mode, select the notes whose stems you want to hide.
In the Properties panel, activate Hide stem in the Notes and Rests group.
What I can find nowhere in the Help, however, is how to select notes while in Engrave Mode. When I double-click a note, it pops me into Write Mode. Further, I cannot find anywhere in the documentation how to open the Properties panel. I’ve searched all over the program for a “Notes and Rests” group (hoping to figure out a workaround), and can’t find it. Quite frustrating.
Perhaps instructions in Help ought not assume the user already knows how to do everything mentioned therein. This really shipwrecks me–and quite often. What should be simple turns into a major research project, which eventually gets turned into a discussion item, which may or may not be answered anytime soon.
You should be able to open the Properties panel by clicking on the little arrow at the bottom edge of the window frame; or from the Window menu “Show Lower Panel” (Command 8 on a Mac / CTRL 8 on PC.)
Dorico 3.1 is over 3 years old, and if you’re just starting with the program, I’d recommend investing in an upgrade to the latest version, which has lots of improvements from user feedback. You’ll also find the latest tutorial videos and help pages won’t match what you have.
Thanks for sharing your experience using the Dorico documentation, @jackpelham . It’s always really valuable to hear this sort of first-hand feedback.
We do try to strike a balance between segmenting our documentation so that a single page contains just the information “advertised” in the title (so you can very neatly hone in on the most relevant pages for what you’re working on) whilst also treating “every page as the first page”. Wherever something is mentioned in passing on a topic, like the Properties panel, I do try to make sure there’s a link at the bottom so further information is easy to access for those who need it, but with hundreds of topics involving the Properties panel alone, there are definitely some that I’ve missed.
If you’re on a page that I have, feel free to let me know about it. But you should also be able to find relevant pages by searching the manual for the name of the panel, dialog etc you want to know more about, e.g. “Properties panel”.
Here are some useful links in the Dorico Pro 3 manual for your questions:
Selecting notes and other items: individually, using Select More, and other “large selections” (although these are located in the Write mode chapter, they either explicitly state they can be used in other modes including Engrave mode, or simply “the music area” generally)
Much like the software, the documentation is always improving. For instance, here’s the equivalent page in the latest Dorico Pro 5 manual about hiding stems – it’s now got example pictures, more context at the start, and more related links to onward, relevant information at the end.
Although I notice that is still missing a link to relevant pages about the Properties panel – I’ve made a note to add those.
I can select ONE note at a time. I find no instructions anywhere as to how to select more than one at a time. Holding SHIFT or CTRL or ALT doesn’t work. So I’m at a loss. I have MANY notes whose stems need to go away, so I’m really hoping it’s possible to select more than one note in Engrave mode.
You can use Ctrl+click (Windows) or Command-click (macOS) to select multiple notes, but a better way to do it would be to select them in Write mode, then switch to Engrave mode. In Dorico 5, you can even then type J to show the jump bar, and type “toggle hide stem” to hide the stems without even switching to Engrave mode.
So let me say this, at the risk of sounding like a jerk. When I paid several hundred dollars for Dorico Pro 3, I thought I was getting a well-developed software that was ready for market. I am frequently very frustrated that the HELP pages tell me how to do something in this or that “mode” or “panel” or whatever, but don’t tell me how to get there. Further, I’ve run into occasions where the HELP page doesn’t bother to tell me, "Oh, yeah, you should know that the thing we just told you only words in XXXX mode. There are so many omissions of this sort that some days, I just have to quite and walk away defeated.
And the answer, then, is to pay even MORE money?
Ironically, I don’t even see any link in the program to where I can buy the latest version.
Further, I have fought so many battles learning how to do what I’ve learned so far, and I dread the thought of discovering that the latest version has made significant changes, such that I have to relearn things.
I tried Finale and Sibelius, and found them ridiculously complicated and un-intuitive. And so with MuseScore. They all boast about how great they are, but all three are plagued with what I call “programmer’s bias”—by which I mean the tendency of the programmer to assume that just because HE can use the software he invented from scratch, everyone else should find it intuitive, too. The fact of the matter is that he learned it step by step while creating it----which experience no normal user has (nor wants). The typical programmer lacks the skills to decouple from his own knowledge, and to put himself fully in the place of the new user, who knows nothing.
Nor does he understand the impact of ONE failure to document. The user stumbles across the mystery, and suddenly, the onus is on the user to become investigator. When this happens once or twice more, the user is not being programmed to EXPECT such failures in documentation. Then he’s emotionally stressed at the thought of using the program—or of wrestling the changes he needs to make. And he may well give up on getting Dorico to produce the quality of scores he needs.
That’s what all this is. Dorico wasn’t ready for market----and the earlier customers who bought in are being punished by being stuck with the insufficient documentation, while the newer versions/customers are getting the attention. And I’m just supposed to be OK with this. But I’m not. I view it as a breech of good faith.
And yes, practically every software company does this. But that doesn’t make it right when you do it. It’s still bad faith. Dorico should have told me up front that it was poorly documented, that I’d be on my own to figure stuff out, or that I’d have to engage in a discussion forum that might or might not give me timely answers—and that the documentation was as-is, and was not to be continually improved in eager fashion.
I could not recommend Dorico to anyone—just as I could not recommend the competitors. I bought in, whenever that was, believing the sales copy, that this was going to be something really special. But if you can’t tell me how to USE it, then it doesn’t really matter if it’s special or not, does it?
I have suffered so much stress at the hands of Dorico. It’s very sad. I run a community choir, and I do lots of composing/arranging/printing. And I have given up on so many improvements that need to be made in my scores because I just don’t have the time to launch a major research project on every little thing. Indeed, it takes quite a lot of turmoil just to get me to post in the forum. And when I do, I’m told to go buy the latest version, rather than told how to operate the one I bought.
Now, you may think I’m a jerk, but I think I’ve been had. And I really doubt that Dorico is going to say, “yes, we screwed you, so we want you to give in and send us MORE money.” I’m not supposed to notice I’m being screwed. I’m just supposed to move along with the other cattle, through the chute, and eager to do as I’m told. And that works out great for Dorico, I suppose. But I have no guarantee that I’m not going to be hosed all over again, just at a higher level this time—which will require me to go through more turmoil to navigate whatever changes you’ve made to the software I’ve grown accustomed to.
I’m very sorry to read this, Jack, and I apologise that in my attempt to help you work more quickly I’ve caused you further upset – I promise that wasn’t my intention.
The Dorico documentation takes a bit of getting used to, because when you search for something, you normally end up on a page that describes exactly what you need to do to achieve the result you’re after, but it may well describe an initial state that doesn’t match where you are in the software.
The “prerequisites” section at the beginning of the task tell you the state you should be in, but of course that section doesn’t directly tell you how to satisfy those prerequisites. Normally, if you look at the list of “Related links” at the bottom of the page, you’ll find links to the tasks that allow you to satisfy those prerequisites.
It’s not a style of documentation I’m personally madly in love with, but it’s a practical way to allow the very complex world of the application to be broken down into chunks that can easily be found by searching. It’s definitely not ideal that you have to learn a bit about how to make the most of the documentation in addition to learning the software itself, but hopefully you will find that once you’re armed with the knowledge of how to work with it, you can quickly find the things you need to know.
More broadly, it’s a challenge for all of us who work on sophisticated and powerful software how to best present that power to users, especially to users who are perhaps only occasional users, and aren’t spending a lot of time with the program, instead needing it from time to time and therefore finding that they don’t completely remember all of the steps they followed the last time they used the software.
We really do spend a lot of time thinking about these issues and working to make the software as obvious as possible, but it’s a decidedly non-trivial problem. Messages such as yours reaffirm that we still have a way to go to achieve this.
Daniel has answered very kindly and honestly, as he always does…
I might add something: as a day-1-user (when no documentation at all was available) I certainly have felt somewhat lost. But there’s always been this forum, with plenty of very nice people willing to help and share their knowledge.
Please use and abuse it. We users and forumers are very happy to help whoever is stuck with the program. Even if you’re on version 3
Benwiggy is a dorico user as I am, and he’s been truly willing to help you, without being condescendant or anything wrong. And it’s kind of the norm here, as all kinds of musicians come here, and you never know if the person who’s asking is the next Furtwangler or Puccini, or the real Herbie Hancock (and it was).
Don’t wait to get nervous to ask any question here. Whenever you’re stuck, drop a line, and you’ll probably be helped in the next ten minutes!
Thank you for expanding on your experience and thoughts in more detail, Jack.
Our users’ ability to use and benefit from Dorico matters enormously to us. That’s why you’ll find Daniel, myself, and other members of the team here on the forum regularly interacting with users (including at evenings and weekends, often!).
We know that different users learn best in different ways. That’s why we provide a variety of learning materials free for all our users, including:
“Discover Dorico” c hour-long live video presentations (e.g. here’s the playlist for Dorico 3)
Beginner tutorials, including a longer-form “First Steps” guide (admittedly first introduced during the 3.5 cycle, but I’d say the vast majority is still accurate for Dorico 3) and more bite-sized “Getting Started” guides
From my perspective, listening to how real-world users phrase their questions and queries feeds directly back into the documentation. I want people to be able to find answers to their questions themselves, and if the existing documentation hasn’t been sufficient to do that, then I’ll be looking to improve it.
I’d like to repeat the offer to share any examples of pages in the manual that don’t answer your question, or searches you made that didn’t bring up sensible results, or pages without appropriate related links – whatever it is that’s not helped you! While I can’t always go back to older manuals and update them, at the very least I can make sure the improvement is applied going forwards.
And you are absolutely always welcome to ask any questions, however big or small, here on the forum.
Have you considered how this might sound from my perspective? It sounds like, “We’d be glad to have you join the team, volunteering your own time with Quality Control work on the v3 documentation, even though it’s quite unlikely to get any better as a result of the time you spend documenting how our documentation is insufficient.”
And from whatever you glean from my input, you may make v6 better—which you will gladly share with me for an upgrade fee.
I’m not trying to be nasty, though what I’m about to say may be hard for some to take in any other spirit: I do see where some of the comments in this thread are working hard to avoid the fact that I got a bum deal, and that the only way to improve it is to pay more money, and then invest in whatever re-learning is necessary to navigate the changes that have happened from v3 forward—effectively negating some of the work I have ALREADY invested in learning to make v3 work.
I already give away my music time as a volunteer conductor/composer/arranger for a nonprofit. I have no time left to volunteer for for-profit corporations who have already acted in bad faith.
I would rather have paid $1000 for v3 and a lifetime of upgrades than to have paid the $600 or so for a not-ready-for-market program that will never get fixed. The insufficient documentation is a major issue–not a minor one. So now, I am a captive user who cannot afford:
To purchase and learn a competing solution.
To keep struggling with the insufficient documentation in the v3 I bought.
To upgrade to v5, and to struggle to re-learn whatever has changed in what I know already.
To do without composition/engraving software.
A negative psychological association has already formed between the name, Dorico, and me, and it’s not getting any better today. I served as Project Manager on a technical mobile application for professionals, so I KNOW how much work it takes to get things just right. But the approach I took was to get the project finished BEFORE we went to market, and not after.
While I’ve learned to do 90% of what all I need to do with Dorico, at least once a month, I have a terrible experience, having built up the courage to go find out how to do one of the things in the remaining 10%. Sometimes I succeed. More often, though, I do not, and I either break down and try the support forum (which is not a sure thing, either), or I just give up, and dump all that emotional energy into my already-negative associations with your brand name.
I do not intend this to be acrimonious, but honest, accurate, and blunt. I hope you can accept it in a spirit of good faith, and not of trying to lash out in my anger.
I was serious about telling you to ask whatever you need whenever you need about Dorico, on the forum. So this should really solve your number 2.
As for number 3, I happen to have translated Dan Kreider’s user guide for beginners in French (and I helped him also a little bit with the content of that guide). He wrote it when we were on v.2, then updated on 2.2 I think. I’d say everything that is in that guide is still valid today (well, page templates were called masterpages by then…) What I mean is nothing you’ve already learned is lost in v.5
They’ve added features, that’s all. There’s no real re-learning curve. But, granted, there’s a much better documentation available, great videos…
Again, don’t waste your time. If there’s something you don’t know how to do, just ask Either the webhelp guide, or the forum.
Ironically, after all these posts, I still don’t have an answer to my title question here.
I did learn not to double-click on the first note in my intended selection, and I see that it turns orange after a single click. But I can figure no way to select the other 26 notes in the passage in question.
I tried a bunch of things BEFORE coming to ask, because I thought it would be faster to ask than trying to figure it out on my own. But I still don’t know after two days.
This, by the way, is a prime example of the kind of experience that I have to struggle not to consider “typical” of my Dorico usage. I try to be objective, but this happens so often that I really have to work to remember that I might use Dorico without incident a few times a month----because these incidents are the things that stick in my mind and taint the brand.
Here’s another case-in-point. Neither in Write Mode, nor in any other, do I find any animal called “application preferences”. Nor can I discern what other nomenclature may be considered that term’s equivalent. Nor do I find any listing called “Note Editing”. Nor did I find either in searching the HELP pages. So this is another case of being given directions for which it is assumed I will have the prerequisite knowledge, and for which it appears that the v3 documentation is insufficient to educate me. One just “has to know”, it appears—as the programmer might—and perhaps a psychic here and there. But being neither, I am out of luck so far.
You can Cmd+click notes individually or you can drag the marquee tool to select a chunk of notes.
If you want a huge selection of notes that you can’t physically select with the marquee tool then you need to go to Write mode (Cmd+2) to make your selection. Then go back to Engrave mode (Cmd+3).
Ctrl+click allows me to select them only one at a time in Engrave Mode, which is tedious, and which is a different function from the options available in Write Mode for selecting passages. And while it may sometimes work to select them in Write Mode, and then flip to Engrave Mode, here’s a but you probably don’t know about:
I’m selecting a passage of 20 or 30 notes in a run. They have an extended tie and a couple of text notes above and below, which I inserted with the “abc” text tool on the far right of the screen. If I select notes that are under the tie, or under the text notes, most of the items in the unlabeled “Properties Panel” below go away—including the option for hiding the stems. So to do this, I would have to go remove my ties and my text notes, then select them all and hide the stems, and then go back and recreate the ties and the added text notes.
Honest comment here, not stirring up strife. You’ve said that Dorico, Finale, Sibelius, and Musescore all miss the mark. Surely there are many tens of thousands of hours of discussion about user experience that have gone into these programs…. And hundreds of thousands of users who seem to have gotten on just fine. Just an observation.
Sure, I see that—as I did before. I think this will be my last post today as it’s becoming too aggravating. But here’s what I’m thinking, for the record:
When I’m given a term that looks like official Dorico nomenclature—in this case, “Application Preferences”, and I search that term and don’t find “Application Preferences” which am I supposed to think?:
a. Gosh, it’s probably not here since the returns don’t include the term “Application Preferences”, or
b. Gosh, it doesn’t SEEM to be here, but maybe if I read other stuff, allowing for changes in terminology (as I’m able to imagine them), I’ll come across something that leads me to what they thought they were directing me to.
FYI, I’ve already noticed this about my own personal psychology, and have had extensive conversations about it with my inquisitive family: After a dog has bitten me a few times, I tend to remember mostly the biting, and not what number of times I walked by his house without being bitten.
In this particular case, I MADE myself choose option b above, choosing to doubt the official-ness of the term “Application Preferences”----and apparently, I was right to do so. Yet even so, nothing in the verbiage on the page you are pointing out here seemed to answer my question. And part of the problem may be that it’s really hard to stand in that dog’s yard without the distraction of previous conditioning. That is, once I’ve looked through so many articles, not finding what I was supposed to find there, I find it very hard to keep my mind diligent in reading the content of those pages.
And I’m sure I’m not the only person like this. Look how people have a hard time listening carefully to politicians or preachers they’ve already been bitten by.
My point, of course, is that this is one of those things that “you just have to know”. You just have to know that when we say “Application Preferences”, that’s just loose language for that area at the bottom of the screen that has no title—because you just have to know that, too.
