How's MIDI programming in Dorico Pro?

This might be a stupid question. I know Dorico Pro is mostly for composing using real music notation as opposed to MIDI notes and CC automation, etc, etc.

But I have the loyalty rebates that put Dorico Pro 5 at $174 and I was watching this video https://youtu.be/fzYp9bDBnBg?si=TiwBUQcf9_QHru27 and the Live Stage and Live Space are features I wish I had in Cubase Pro 13 and/or Nuendo 13. The way it’s shown in the video seems like they are really well designed, and it’s something I always wanted.

Added to that, based on that and other videos it seems that Dorico has many more features targeted towards film music and orchestral music composers than Cubase Pro 13 or even Nuendo, which besides the welcome addition of Iconica Sketch, seems more targeted towards pop music.

However, I’ve been using Cubase Pro and then Nuendo for about a year and a half, and they feel like home to me. I love the interface and features, and I don’t care if 90% of the industry uses ProTools because that to me is the same vicious circle as the video and motion graphics industry using Adobe CC; everybody uses Adobe CC because everybody uses Adobe CC, even if there are far better and less expensive solutions.

For what I’ve seen in the Dorico videos, it has some kind of way to edit MIDI if I’m correct, but I wanted to ask people here that use both Dorico Pro 5 and Cubase Pro 13 or Nuendo 13 what’s the workflow like in Dorico compared to Cubase Pro? Do they talk to each other well, or are they two totally different programs that can’t exchange projects? If they are different, how far does Dorico Pro go in terms of MIDI editing and programming? CC automation, audio FX and 3rd party compatibility, etc.

It can be done, but if you want to work in MIDI, you’re far better off, IMO, sticking with Cubase. Although I suppose you could program all the MIDI in Cubase, import it into Dorico and then use the features you want. It would be best to download the Dorico demo and see if that flow works for you.

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You can export MIDI or MusicXML between Cubase/Nuendo and Dorico, but there’s no document exchange or connection between them. However, that is one area that has been requested, and is certainly on the developers’ list.

You can use VST plug-ins, and there is support for drawing CC automation lines; but I’d agree that unless you want to start from notation, you’re probably better off sticking with what you have.

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Thank you both for your opinions.

Well, let me ask from another perspective. My goal is to be a film and TV composer, and I struggle with music theory. That said, I know I need to learn it if I’m going to be a half decent composer. But my goal is not to be just a composer, but to be my own sound engineer, something like Hans Zimmer or Tom Holkenborg, people who know music but also all the technical areas in creating music, software, gear, etc.

Now, if I had to pay the regular price for Dorico Pro 5 I wouldn’t really consider it, even if it was the current price for first time customers, I think $290. But in the year and a half I’ve been learning this on my own, I’ve acquired a great deal of great software because I waited for the good sales, not the regular ones, and at $174 it doesn’t seem that it can ever go lower than that.

So while it may not be as full featured as Cubase or Nuendo in MIDI programming, as a music student focusing in film and TV music, would it be a good tool to have? Does it have tools that help with learning music theory and composition for orchestral music, both soundtrack and classical styles? Because that’s something that would make it worth it the $174 for me.

With this I’m not asking for a “wizard” or AI type solution that asks me what type of movie I’m trying to score and it just gives me the full thing already done. I’m asking more in the sense of correcting me if I make a music theory mistake, or giving me the beginning of an idea that then I can transform into something more complex. The kind of thing where you still need to know music, not a button you press and voilá, it’s done.

If you’re dealing with music theory, then you need to see the notation, so in that case, yes: you’ll need an app like Dorico.

If you need an app to help you correct your mistakes, or, even worse, giving you ideas, you’re in real trouble …

Take a course in music theory and ear training. This will help you more than anything else. And yes, Dorico is worth every penny, even at the full price. If you ever get to the point where one of your scores is recorded by a real orchestra or band, it will help you more than you can imagine now.

Good luck with your endeavors!

I don’t think anything like that exists anywhere. Sadly, there are no shortcuts to what you need. As a fellow user suggested, the only way to get these results is to enhance your knowledge of music, and that is done by lessons/courses.

Sebastian,

If you want to get into film composing, you might find this article by Tim Davies interesting, even helpful to your thinking.

He used Finale at that point, but Dorico Pro could serve just as well.

The computing world is full of apps that correct people’s mistakes, and have been for decades. That’s why NASA in the 60’s was using computers that were so amazing they could fit in one room.

But even the most educated need some autocorrect every now and then, and Excel has a symbol to show you if your math is wrong.

And what is the quantize for in DAWs? To correct people’s mistakes when playing.

Yeah, it seems obvious that either you missed the point, or I didn’t explain it correctly. Let me give you examples.

I wouldn’t assume that just because you use Dorico Pro, you also use Cubase Pro, but Cubase Pro has features that are precisely what I’m talking about. I don’t know exactly how many, but I’m guessing hundreds of loops that you can use to make a song without knowing the first thing about music theory.

But say you’re learning it, so you’re more or less familiar with the circle of fifths and chords, etc. You have these things:

And generally speaking, most of those chord pads go well with each other. If you have composer’s block, you start recording, clicking on those chords, and you get some ideas, that then you can develop. Like I could do this here, that there. Everybody borrows from somewhere, doesn’t make it wrong, unless the borrowing is extreme and it’s plagiarism. But you can get an idea from something basic.

Logic Pro has its own set of helping hands, taking the loops to a whole new level with the Liveloops feature. It’s not really my thing, but I made some fun stuff with it.

And if we go further, look at all the instruments from Native Instruments that you have in Komplete 14 CE. Action Strikes, Action Strings, Ashlight, Fables, Lores, Mysteria, Pharlight, the guitars with hundred of presets, and the list goes on and on.

Of course the more you know music theory, the better you can squeeze those instrument combos, but I would say it’s far from “I don’t think anything like that exists anywhere.” It exists, and it exists in a substantial amount. These days, anyone can make music without knowing any theory at all.

That doesn’t mean that I want to have a ChatGPT of sorts to make music, I wouldn’t enjoy it if it were the case; but it’s good to have some help here and there when you still don’t know everything and have little time to learn everything.

I actually wanted to give you some well-intentioned advice. Apparently you took it as an insult, which I’m sorry about, that wasn’t my intention.
But if you really intend to make a professional career in the music industry, your approach won’t get you far. Without your own ideas and by copy-pasting from ready-made material, you will always sound like hundreds before you. If that’s what you want, ok, keep doing it.
But all this has little to do with Dorico, so I’ll leave it at that.

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I see.

I am on the other side of things, i.e., I believe you need to know your stuff, 100%, inside out, if you want to become a film music composer.

For me loops, heavyocity type stuff and one finger Stubber’s programs are not for me.

But of course, some successful bands for instance have musicians who don’t know the first thing about reading music or music theory, and yet they are in huge bands.

Zimmer also has no formal education, but as I said, I personally don’t agree with this approach.

To your request for Dorico,

What you are referring to, i.e. , the program to fix mistakes, that is a very nuanced need and goes far beyond chord assistance, loops etc.

If you arrange, e.g., a first inversion the wrong way , or you might arrange strings messily, close to the melody with notes that are offensive, you can only fix that if you know what you are doing. Don’t get me wrong, maybe one day this technology might exist, but to me is as bad as one finger stabbing.

The craft of scoring music looses its meaning, in my humble opinion.

Specifically, what you asked for, doesn’t exist.

Of course, there are tools to help people who don’t know music, or some that are looking for some help, but know music, to get creative by having loops, chord assistance, etc, to help to write music.

I didn’t take it as an insult, but it seems to me that you really misread my post, even after clarifying it. You think my approach is 1) that I don’t have my own ideas, and 2) that I want to copy paste from ready-made material? When did I say anything like that?

Keep doing what? I’m just an old guy trying to learn this stuff on my own. I won’t keep “doing it”, because so far I haven’t done anything other than mockups to learn MIDI programming and music at the same time.

I believe so too, however, if I had believed that about 40 years ago when I was a teenager and would’ve dedicated my life to learn something as complicated as music theory and some of the instruments I love now, I would say that’s doable.

But well, sometimes you have a passion and you have to follow it, even if you don’t have your whole life ahead of you to learn all the theory about it.

I never understood how musicians say that they don’t know any music theory. That’s just not true. Perhaps they don’t know it at 100%, but you can’t possibly play an instrument by simply learning the visual position of your fingers on it. You have to know the chords, the notes, which ones go well with what others.

Now, to me it’s fine if they don’t know all the music theory as long as they have talent.

Well, but if Zimmer has no formal education, to me it doesn’t matter one bit because he’s one of the greatest composers of all time, and to me clearly the most original. He reinvents himself all the time, while many others do the same most of the time, even some of the greatest ones. I have more albums by Hans Zimmer than any other artist, in all music genres.

Words of encouragement: Music theory is basically taxonomy – putting labels on patterns in music. This is the note D, a V⁷ chord, a coda, a motive. If you have musical ideas you don’t really have to know how they “work” to use them. The mysteries of how music works fascinate people who haven’t studied it mainly because these things are fairly easy to hear, but hard to describe.

Now, if you’re writing for human players, you do have to learn how to write well for the instruments, and notate well, especially for film music, which is mostly sight-read in expensive sessions. But if you’re producing all your own sounds … I recommend just sticking with the software you know.

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Dorico doesn’t have the loops, chord assistants, etc. that you find in Cubase. Neither do other notation programs. Some people using Cubase or other DAWs are just using it to tinker around and experiment with things, and they don’t know very much, and so those features can be useful for that kind of user. Certainly some pop music genres need very little theory knowledge. But such users rarely have music notation needs (and many can’t read notation at all), so very few of them would gravitate towards a notation program like Dorico.

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A lot of this is simply memorizing patterns. We grow up with so much music around us (especially popular commercial music) that if we pay any attention at all we are going to be picking up patterns without having any idea what they are and how they work. Playing an instrument, we’ll stumble upon them and they’ll sound “cool” in part because they are so familiar.

Music theory can be one of those vague notions that can mean different things to different people. To me personally, much of music theory is connected to form and harmony, and more specifically a collection of stylistic conventions around particular historical styles. In this sense, “a music theory mistake” would be where you are mixing things up where they don’t belong. Using a #III7th chord in the dominant function within the style of the Classical era may be regarded as an obvious mistake, but it would be right at home in 1935. Same with parallel voice leading.

My suggestion would be to focus more on (1) mastering well established chord progressions (including some basic jazz turnarounds), (2) learning basic melody construction, and (3) modern musical form. To my ears what sets Hans Zimmer apart is not music theory but rather creative sound design and clever presentation.

First and foremost, Dorico is a music notation/engraving program

Dorico doesn’t really have anything you’re describing above in your various posts. In Dorico, the note head color will change if a note is out of the range for a particular instrument. But it contains no drag and drop audio loops and pads (maybe the included Groove Agent works this way in some form, but I’ve never opened it or looked at it).

Dorico doesn’t even alert you if you have parallel 5th/8ves which would be a music theory correction tool 101.

There’s a relatively new Musical Transformation feature which allows you to select music you’ve written and you can invert it, reverse the pitches, combinations of both and many other things.

It sounds like you’d be better off continuing working in your DAW - especially since you also said you also want to be your own sound engineer (which DAWs are much more built for) . Oh, and check out a 3rd party program called Scaler which seems more in line with what you’re looking for. I have no experience with it however, but it seems pretty powerful.

FYI, I hate to discourage anyone from purchasing Dorico because it’s brilliant and I don’t want to upset the higher ups here, but I’m just trying to help this person out. If the mods don’t feel it’s appropriate, please delete my post. I completely understand.

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Guys, just to be clear on one thing, because I see it mentioned a lot. The only reason I mentioned loops is because user somecomposer said that music apps don’t have any kind of “helpers” or whatever you want to call them. I mentioned them as one example, however, there’s no chance in hell that I would compose anything using loops, that would be like one step above asking AI to compose for me.

I never used the loops that come with Cubase, I did however made a fun song with the ones that came with Studio One Producer, back in 2014 when I bought a cheap keyboard that came with it, and it was just fun, not a piece I would consider serious by any stretch.

Same more recently, when I did something with Logic Pro’s Liveloops, and those are more fun because you don’t drag and drop loops from a list (which you can still do in Logic Pro), but you get different templates for different genres and you simply click on squares, so each column is an option, and it’s fun, it’s kinda like a game if you will. But it’s still a more complex and fun version of loops, and for obvious reasons, there are no templates in that for anything orchestral.

But I don’t agree with most of you in that every possible way to assist the composer in creating something is morally wrong and your music will sound like everybody else’s if you accept that.

For example, I asked my music teacher for some homework. She sent me a project with just four chords for piano and told me to compose around that. So those four chords inspired me to compose something with more piano, a CS-80, brass, woodwinds, strings, and a cello solo from my friend Tina Guo.

I showed it to my teacher, and she loved it. I’m still working on it, but it all came out of a simple chord progression. Of course if I were to ever publish it, she would be credited as a co-author with me, not that I will.

And sometimes I’m watching something with a nice score, and at one point the composer wrote a melody that I liked, and when I listened to it, I started thinking, what if took the first four chords or notes of that melody but I continued it this other way? I don’t see anything wrong with that.

The estate of Gustav Holst sued Hans Zimmer for “The Battle” having some similarity with “Mars” from “The Planets”. To me that’s ridiculous, and I doubt that Gustav Holst would’ve done that had he been alive. First, because to me that’s obviously a homage, not plagiarism. “The Battle” is a formidable piece in itself, that perhaps gets close to “Mars”, but it’s far from being the same thing.

And if composers who pay a homage to “The Planets” are to be sued, then you’d have a pretty long list. In the late 90’s when I discovered “The Planets”, besides my fascination with the piece itself which remains to this day, I thought “Holy crap, all the composers that made the score for sci-fi movies and TV series started from this!” John Williams, Jerry Goldsmith, and the list goes on and on. And I didn’t think any less of them because of it.

So to me it’s not wrong to grab inspiration from brilliant works, or to have some tools to assist, without giving you everything on a platter. I have a lot of trouble learning music theory. It’s terribly complicated for me, and it’s very hard for me to retain all the stuff my music teacher taught me, and all the stuff I learned on my own, especially because I have ADHD and horrible short term memory.

But sometimes these tools help you learn. My Native Instruments keyboard can be set to many different ways to use as a learning tool, like showing the LEDs only on the keys that make up a scale, or show you all the different modes like Aeolian, Dorian, Mixolydian, or even Mandalorian! :laughing:

In an ideal world, we’d have eternal life, or at least a life that is not so short, and we’d have all the time we need to learn every single bit of music theory there is. But the reality is way different, and some of us have to do the best we can with the time we have left.

I see what you mean. From what you said, in terms of preferences, it’s doable to score movies, no matter what age you start from (well, within reason), if you are looking to go down the Zimmer path, as his music is production heavy, but musically follows simple compositional techniques.

James Hetfield has no idea what the chords he is playing are, yet, he is the guitar player and main songwriter in one of the biggest bands in the world.

Actually, a lot of guitarists play exactly like that, including Hetfield.

I mentioned Zimmer as a good thing for what you are looking for, as he doesn’t have formal education, yet he is one of the most successful film music composers of our time.

I believe I said that there are tools to help people to create music, including loops. I omitted to say that they only exist in DAWs. Not in notation programs, because inherently, people who use notation programs have studied music theory and orchestration, and will probably have no, to very little need for such tools.

hmm, I think each to their own on this one. The same goes with assistance programs in Cubase. I disagree with them, but people seem to want them.

Regarding scoring, that’s a craft that can take people 10 to 20 years to perfect. As I stated, in my humble opinion, such tools will render much of the art of scoring nearly meaningless.

Well, there are tools to help you do just that. Cubase is brilliant at that. Use Cubase. To be completely honest, there isn’t a mountain to climb, in order to learn how to arrange music without making mistakes.

Just immerse your self into it, it’s doable.

Yeeeaaahhh, sorry there bud, that music was nearly a carbon copy of Holst’s Mars, like, all of it.

Evolution of music has happened in the way were composers were inspired by their predecessors, some have used some parts as a tip of the hat and nothing more. I am not saying of course that no other composers have committed plagiarism, because they have.

There are a lot of lawsuits happening all the time. Zimmer’s was prolific because of his status.

The guy who wrote 300 was sued by Goldenthal for instance, it’s a lot of that happening. Can be Temp Track love by the director (actually , usually, it’s exactly that).

Nobody disputes that. But you are asking to simplify Dorico to the point where people who have no idea how to score music, can do just that.

Scoring and arranging music is an art. In my personal opinion, it will be degrading to the art having tools to fix one’s mistakes.

As I said, you want inspiration and assistance?

There are a ton of tools in Cubase, and there is nothing wrong with that.

Please point me to the phrase where I said something like “I don’t know any music theory and I don’t want to learn it because learning music theory is for suckers and I want Dorico Pro 5 to write the greatest film score of all time while I sip margaritas at the beach in Turks & Caicos.” or anything remotely similar.

I see this in forums all the time, not just in exchanges between me and others, but between other people. Somebody says something and a bunch of people reply to that person as if he or she had said an extreme version of what they actually said.

Just because I asked if Dorico Pro 5 has some type of assistance doesn’t mean I asked if it can do everything for me.

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