I'm sure it's just me, but... voume trim on automation?

Hey folks,

I’m in the process of testing out Nuendo 8.1 and am hoping to migrate over after many years of Pro Tools. I’m stuck on something that is very easy to do in Pro Tools: volume trim automation. Specifically, I want to select an event, have the selection automatically be the start and end of that event (I know you can type P to do this manually, but can this be done automatically?), then turn down the volume automation with the equivalent of Pro Tools Trim Tool (picture attached), preferably having some sort of dialogue pop up telling me how many dB I’m adjusting by.

Is there a Trim Tool somewhere in Nuendo that I’m just missing? I’ve tried using the channel fader, but that just turns down the volume automation on the entire track instead of just the selection. I also know you can click and drag from the top of the event, but that seems to actually re-write the waveform (Everything in N8.1 is non-destructive, but still). Finally, I tried using the line tool on the automation lane, but it’s very hard to figure out how much you are decreasing the volume by. If I’m off, I still don’t know how to make an adjustment quickly.

It would be ideal if I could just select the event, or make a selection in the volume automation lane, then use the channel fader and have it turn down the volume ONLY ON THE SELECTION. I believe this is called “flip to fader?” Failing that, a trim tool would be fine. If either of those is possible, please tell me what I’m doing wrong. If not, your preferred workaround?


SYSTEM INFO:
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Trim Tool.png

It’s not just you. I am a former (and current because of Cubendo issues on Mac) Pro Tools user, and unfortunately there is no such trim tool in Nuendo. Many, many users have been requesting it here for many years now, and it’s significant workflow impedance not having it. Sorry to break it to you. :frowning:

Sorry, no.
I am personally annoyed by this as well, but on the other hand Steinberg’s GUI approach has traditionally always been about clips rather than selection ranges. So I guess most users have been using clip gain (you can set up key commands, I have +/-1, +/- 3dB) for that.
On (volume) automation data, things unfortunately need more mouse clicks and users have been begging for years as In_Stereo has pointed out.

Evidently, SB have been listening… looks like (from the Cubase Pro 9.5 promo vid just posted) that this will at last be available without having to do all the clunky additional clicking etc… Just make a range and drag up/down.!
https://youtu.be/673VCqVHY9Y?t=2m36s

As to when it will be included in Nuendo… Well, you’ve got to hope it could happen within a couple of months (before the end of Feb 2018 at the outside.?)

Hooray, let’s hope this will be included in an update soon.

“soon”… lol…

Thanks everyone. I appreciate y’all clearing that up. This is going to be a tough habit to break, but perhaps with the line tool and my Avid Dock’s fader, maybe I’ll get used to it.

Cubase now has it in 9.5, but unfortunately you can’t see the value when you’re adjusting it, which is a major miss. Still, it’s fantastic to have this tool, finally. Maybe Nuendo will have a value difference readout when it gets implemented – it’s a feature very much needed for any serious mixer!

-Set locators to selection
-Activate “Fill Loop” (automation panel)
-Activate “Trim” (automation panel)

(You can build a Macro for that, so you have it under one single Key Command)

==>>> Move fader of selected track and your automation will be trimmed under the selected event.

Fredo

unless I’m misunderstanding something: select range with mouse and scale vertically by dragging down? or select range with mouse and simply enter a dB value in the info bar - it will show you the value of the first automation point and will then scale the other points in the range accordingly.

i don’t get what people are saying here about not having this “feature.”

Then, prepare yourself for a treat… Here’s what it looks like in Studio One:-
S1 - trim auto ToolTips 2.gif
See how the ToolTip display changes when you start to move the line… Once you’re used to seeing it here, right where you are working with the mouse cursor, you’ll quickly tire of bouncing your eyeballs up and down to the InfoLine, just to check values. :slight_smile:

As a side note, in Cubase moving a range selection value up/down is actually ‘scaling’ that value - its logarithmic; so the degree of precision is difficult unless the track height is quite big. In Studio One, the value is adjusted in a linear fashion - makes for a much more comfortable UI experience as you adjust, IMHO

considering that the dB is a logarithmic unit - and we are supposed to be listening rather than obsessing over how neat the automation curves are - scaling logarithmically is the correct way to do it.

If my math knowledge doesn’t let me down, then herein lies the misunderstanding. Because dB is already logarithmic, scaling it linearly is the correct way to do it, no?

isn’t the visual representation accounting for changes in the power ratio? if so, logarithmic scaling is correct

Well, I’m unsure what’s correct technically here - but to be clear, I’m referring only to the movement of the line up or down as you trim the value. In Cubase it scales, in Studio One it moves in a linear way. Which I personally far prefer.

It’s not having any bearing on the actual data value being output, in either app. It’s a user experience thing.

Linear, consistent, predictable adjustment, versus granular, awkward, logarithmic type behaviour…

Sorry, but I really don’t see the point of this discussion.
When using the automation system (Fill loop/Trim/move fader) it looks like this:
Trim Automation.jpg
When selecting the automation points by mouse or any other means, and you want to drag them up or down, it looks like that:
Trim Automation_Manual.jpg
In both cases the volume of all points are being “moved” by the same amount of level.
So when performing the “trim”, you don’t have to think about anything, it is performed correctly.

What am I missing?

Fredo

Thank you Fredo!

…and here is another solution to create a new horizontal line above or below an existing automation in Nuendo -
in this case it will also automatically generate 4 new anchor points too (like in PT or S1 e.g.)
please see this vid:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IyZpqbqAyGk

This is a nice way to do this, I use it a lot.

I think this a typical case of not knowing the application.
Volume trim on the event itelf will do a much quicker and faster job, which doesn’t screw your automation up.
OP thinks that “it re-writes the waveform”…
There are a bunch of other solutions, which are all much easier & faster than writing or trimming an automation line, so I think this is a case of “I have always done it like that …”

Fredo

@fredo wrote - “In both cases the volume of all points are being “moved” by the same amount of level.”

Ok, I agree with your case - but as I’ve said, I’m hoping this is only a visual UI thing, when comparing StudioOne with C9.5 Trim Automation behaviour.

So, let me try again. Please have a look to the two attached gif’s.

Here’s Trim Automation from StudioOne:-
S1_Trim automation.gif
Note how the individual nodes of automation all move as one entity as you drag the mouse cursor up or down.

Here’s Trim Automation from C9.5:-
C95_Trim automation.gif
Now, please discuss/explain to me what you see, between the two examples.

Also, note the two differently labelled options in C9.5; ‘Scale vertically’ and ‘Move vertically’. They both appear to me to result in the same behaviour/outcome. Is that what we should expect.? ‘Scale vertically’ I understand; I’m wanting ‘Move vertically’ to behave as the nodes do in StudioOne. Checking this behaviour in the Controller Lane of the Key Editor, on some CC Data, shows expected results - i.e. ‘Move vertically’ moves all nodes as one entity; ‘Scale vertically’ moves all the nodes by relative amounts to each other.
Move Vertically = correct behaviour.gif
But I digress… maybe that’s too much of an apples/oranges comparison; I’m just trying to illustrate a point.

Back on topic, I don’t know (now, after reading this thread.!) what is ‘correct’ - I just prefer how StudioOne handles this ‘Trim Automation’ functionality.

Well then, do the test in both Studio One and Cubase (this is the Nuendo forum BTW …) and see/listen if the outcome is different.

As for the visual thing …
So Studio One has a representation of “level” which is completely linear!?
So the -105dB has the same “scale” as -2dB!? That must be unworkable? How do you trim a few dB’s off?
In Cubase/Nuendo the scale is represented in a logarithmic way.
I.e., when your trim a few dB off the top (around 0dB) you move your automation point -say- half a centimeter.
For editing “down under” (say around minus -80dB) you would need to open up the automation line to be able to do that, since it only requires a move of a tenth of a milimeter.
That makes it easy to edit.
In a Linear representation, your tweak near 0dB would also be a tenth of milimeter, so unworkable.

I am sure the Studio One guys are much moe clever than that…
Bottom line stays; Trim changes the volume of all automation points by the same amount of dB.

Fredo