Insert mode + stop position is Dorico’s weakest feature

I now have 15 pages of misaligned music with multiple voices thanks to the insert mode that for some reason was not protected by the stop bar and some offset “leaked” through the stop bar without me noticing. Will it be fixed soon?

I’m sorry you’ve had problems. However, we’ll need a bit more information from you about exactly what editing or inputting operations you did that didn’t respect the Insert mode stop position in order for us to be able to investigate the issue.

I’m sorry to say that is quite a bold statement to make.
Please provide some instructions to reproduce the problem on a minimal example file. Or be ready to read several times that there might be some user error in there (which is perfectly possible, as insert mode can be tricky). :person_shrugging:

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I’m sorry to say that is quite a bold statement to make.

Yeah, sorry I should have been a bit more neutral in my title. Your mileage may vary but all the data integrity problems I’ve had with Dorico up to now is using this the insert mode and the stop bar. While I think it’s the weakest, it will be a useful one when it will be 100% robust. That and the fact that multiple voices do not move coherently in relation to each other. I’d like to be confident that using that feature does not mess with the rest of my score.

The fact is that I don’t know when and why it occurred (hence the major rework I have to do, because it occurred a some days ago (and my autosaves are sparse, because I mostly work on my iPad which does not produce autosaves. I use the desktop from time to time).

My main use of this feature has been to divide or multiply note duration, but for that I always use the stop bar to protect the bars. I remember once that some notes following a transformation ended up after the stop bar. It might actually be the cause.

I was able to reproduce some steps that could explain the mess in my score. I’ve attached a screen grab showing the process. In the video, insert mode is on. I double the duration of the selected notes; one note leaks through the bar, and then I move the selection to the left. That leaked note now grabs voice 1 from the top staff, but for some reason it pushes it to the right.

I’m curious. What did you expect to happen when trying to double durations that would extend notes beyond the stop bar?

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@sim

before this last step, disengage insert mode: all will be right (but you have to edit the last couple of notes…) And @Janus question is indeed valid, and what is the final result that you want?

A possible explanation (someone correct me if I am wrong):
The b and g# are all in one voice: if you pull back the position on downbeat of bar 2 with insert mode on, you are telling Dorico to insert a rest because you didn’t pulled the b (that is in the same voice). And the g# is selected after the red line, so it will behave as if no red line is there because you are editing something after the red line.

Anyway in your case maybe a better approach is this (using a second voice)-[updated gif]:
CleanShot 2024-03-06 at 23.24.21

Well, being called a stop bar, I would expect it to actually stop notes from crossing it, even if it means absorbing notes.
To me this behaviour is more consistent with what the stop bar promises. This is exactly the behaviour of the stop bar when input mode is on with insert mode.
I prefer losing a couple of notes from a passage I’m currently focused on than losing notes and alignment further away in the score where I’m not paying attention.

Thank you for your help. Now I know how to avoid that kind of unwanted behaviour; I believe my problem is a mix of misuse of and bug with the feature. My example was made up to try to explain/reproduced what happened, but I think it clearly shows an issue with the feature. I can’t logically explain why the notes right of the stop bar would shift to the right, while I’m shifting the selection to the left.

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In my reproduction of your music nothing was shifted as I see in your video…[EDIT: sorry I tried again and indeed the Upstem Voice 1 in bar 3 is moving…] That has to do with voices… Can you share the Dorico file to go deeper in the search of what is happening?

Sure. Here’s the file.
Projet sans titre 3.dorico (1010.7 KB)

Thank you for the file @sim,
and yes also in my file the Upstem Voice 1 moved. But I think this has to do with what I said earlier: because you are editing something (the g#) that is on the right of the red line:

And also:

On the other hand I understand your dubitating the functionality of the Stop Bar: reading the manual it appears as if the third g# in the piece (the last note of your edited notes) should not be there and should be deleted by Dorico, when you apply the Double Note Values command, because of the Stop Bar… Maybe @Lillie_Harris can give some advice what the line of the manual is referring to, or if there is some inconsistency in the behaviour?:

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With Insert mode engaged, when you shift a selection, notes/rests before the selection are shifted to after the selection. So here, the quaver rest is shifted. It cannot form a chord with the residual B so everything in that voice must get shifted.

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Thank you for the explanation @Janus. A bit counter-intuitive, but it makes sense from the pure insert mode perspective.

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That’s how I read it too, but that doesn’t seem to be the case though. In practice, it seems like Dorico only cares about the start position of notes before the stop bar, not the end position.

In the below gifs, if I have half notes before the stop bar, and apply Double Note Duration, the start of the second note would be pushed to the next bar, and as such, gets eaten by the stop bar:
2

If I only have one note that starts before the stop bar and apply Double Note Duration with Insert active, Dorico fails to consider the stop bar when calculating the end of that note:
1

No idea if that’s working correctly or not, but allowing notes to pass through the stop bar doesn’t seem like desirable behavior to me.

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Thank you for confirming it @FredGUnn and for your very clear example.

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While I see your point, to me it has always seemed logical that if you are doubling a duration you have to first add the room (bars) for it to occupy.

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That’s what I do now… I can say I learned the hard way!