Inserting pages changes the existing pages layout

Dorico
#1

Hi,

I’ve created a score, and then wanted to add a Title page and a Front Matter page.

So, I’ve created a new master page with no elements in it, and called it the Blank page. (I could have added some automatic text tokens for author and title, but this is something that will try later).

When inserting one or two pages before the first page, all the frames in the existing pages are arbitrarily moved. For example, inserted graphic frames are no longer next to the place I put them.

Is there are reason for this rearrangement of the existing pages? Is there a way to prevent this change?

Another thing I would like is to have the page number and running headers remain on the correct side of the page. If I insert a single page at the beginning, odd page numbers are moved to the left pages, and even page numbers are moved to the right pages. If I reassign master pages to these pages, I lose the inserted graphic frames.

Paolo

#2

You could change the starting page number on your first page of music to page 2.

#3

Page numbering seems fine. If I want to change the numbers, I have to expressly enter a page number change. But if I insert a single page at the beginning, what was page 2 is now page 3.

Only, the number ‘3’ appears in the left corner of the page, instead of the right. As if it was an even page.

Paolo

#4

I think you probably need to make a ‘master page change’ rather than ‘insert pages’. This video from Dan Krieder might help: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SAfWaxIWFew Go to 15 mins and watch the following 5 minutes.

#5

If you have page overrides (as indicated by red corners in the top right panel of Engrave mode) then when the pagination changes, Dorico can’t automatically replace the left master page with the right master page (and vice-versa). Either remove the overrides or move the page numbers manually.

#6

If you add a single title page, either the back of the title page is page 2 with music on it or the back of the title page is blank, but it is still a page and needs to be accounted for in your assignment of a blank page two in the Engrave Mode right hand pages panel, not simply calling the first page of music page 3 and expecting Dorico to add another page for you.

#7

This explains why it happens. Since I have graphic frames in any page, and manually edited the flow header and running headers, all pages appear as modified and with overrides. Removing overrides means that all my changes are deleted, including added graphic frames.

This means that any change has to be carefully planned before editing any content created by the master pages, or it will be deleted in case of reapplying them. I feel it as a bit more aggressive behavior, compared to InDesign, but this may depend on the fact that with ID I use separate sections and very few local manual changes, so I simply don’t see this happening often.

Maybe keeping Title page, Front Matter page and Back Matter pages in separate files would not be a bad idea. Dorico doesn’t have a Book feature like ID, but it should be easy to assemble a complete PDF with something like Apple Preview (in lack of more powerful tools).

Oh, but I don’t expect it to do it for me. It’s just that numbers are on the wrong side of the page.

Paolo

#8

Dear Paolo,
This is what Master Page Sets are there for. There you can Design as many title pages as you want.
Also, with the right tokens etc it makes it unnecessary to change flow headers or titles locally.

#9

The problem arises when you insert any graphics in your score. And this may be needed, for example, to show multiphonic fingering or insert graphic indications. When you insert any of them, the master page settings are overridden. If you remove all overrides, you lose all imported graphics.

In my case, I tried to insert a single cover page, since the score is very short. This made all subsequent running headers appear on the wrong odd/even page. Removing overrides to reapply the correct running header also removes any additional frames.

I just did a try with a new, blank document.

  1. Fill two pages with default formatting (First/Default) with music.
  2. Add a graphic frame somewhere (page 2).
  3. Insert a blank page (format None) before them.
    The page with a graphic frame (now page 3) has the running page number on the wrong side (see attached image).
  4. In the Engrave > Pages pane, select the Remove Overrides or Remove All Overrides.
    The page with a graphic frame (page 3) now shows the running page number in the right side, but the imported graphic frame has been deleted.

I noticed something else: if you insert a blank page at the beginning, Remove All Overrides deletes it, if it is still empty.

Paolo

wrong-page-side.png

#10

It’s true that you do have to carefully plan your work when working with page overrides. You should find that you can move the overrides back by one page to account for the addition of a title page, but as Leo points out you’ll end up with page numbers on the wrong side of the page, potentially. Adding two blank pages at the start might save you some time, so that the first page of music is still a right-hander, but obviously that might not be ideal for the overall length of the layout.

#11

The things you have to remember are
a) that Page Overrides are Overrides to the Page. They’re overrides to the arrangement of frames on an individual page. They have no awareness of the music that happens to flow through those frames, so if that music grows or shrinks the overrides stay put.
b) when you override a frame on a page, Dorico assumes that every position of every item on that page is an intentional decision on your part, and one that you want to retain. From the moment that you override a page, Dorico will not alter anything on that page automatically (except for the contents of music frames). Changes to pagination, flow headings, layout options etc. will not affect that page until you remove the overrides.

An entirely blank page will indeed be removed by Remove All Overrides, because without a music frame its only reason to exist is the override.

#12

Thank you all for the further clarification.

A solution for my problem (adding graphics, but keeping open at resetting the page layout) would be to have graphics added not as frames, but as attachments. To preserve the analogy with InDesign, an anchored frame instead of a frame freely positioned in the page.

This type of attachment would be used not for structural elements of the page, but for graphic elements being part of the score. And flowing with the score, whichever the page layout they flow in.

Maybe this can already be done, and I’m simply unaware of it. Maybe adding these graphic elements as custom playing techniques, not linked with any playback playing technique.

Paolo

#13

Custom Playing Techniques are almost definitely the way to go for multiphonic fingerings. You’ll need to think carefully about how to name them, of course, as there’s no good way of managing large numbers of Playing Techniques at present.

#14

I’ll follow this route. As for naming, maybe I can use a standard naming like [multiphonic][instrument-name][note-sequence-separated-by-hyphens], like “multiphonic_cl-cb_e-e-bb”.

Typing “multi” in the Playing Technique popover open the list of available multiphonics.

Paolo