As a recorder player, I’m particularly interested in using Dorico for writing music for recorders (along with other instruments). I’m sure I’ll be able to figure out how to accomplish the following things with my own instrument definitions, but I’d like to make some suggestions in the hope that perhaps a future version of Dorico will incorporate them.
I’ll start with the soprano recorder. Music for soprano recorder is essentially always written in treble clef, with notes sounding one octave higher than they are written. However, sometimes, this transposition is explicitly indicated by using a treble clef with 8va (i.e. the clef with the little 8 on top of it). If this is done, then technically the soprano recorder should not be considered as a transposing instrument.
So I would expect Dorico to behave as follows: When I create a score with a soprano recorder and select “transposed pitch,” I would expect a staff with a treble clef, in which I can enter notes and hear them an octave higher than what I entered.
So far this matches Dorico’s behavior. However, if I now select “concert pitch,” I would expect the clef to change to treble+8va with the notes remaining in the same place, and now sounding as written (because of the 8va). This does not happen.
If I try the corresponding operations with, say, a tenor sax, the notes and key signature change accordingly; so the problem must be in how the recorder instrument definitions are set up.
Does anyone better versed than I in these matters care to comment?
I’ll talk about other recorder voices as separate topics.
Dorico was originally designed with the ottava clefs as “cosmetic” only – so that they didn’t change the pitch or sound, for exactly the reason you point out: for many instruments, they are optional. Sometimes, they are explicitly shown, and othertimes not.
However, as Dorico matured, it is now has the option of “working” ottava clefs. That doesn’t help you with the business of octave transposition, though.
Octave transposing instruments are treated differently from other transposing instruments, like Clarinet in Bb, and they generally display the same pitch in both Concert and Transposed pitch.
Interestingly, someone asked a very similar question, wanting to display “concert” pitch for Piccolos and Contrabasses.
You may be able to use the same technique to create different octaves for Concert and Transposed pitch, so as not to affect the parts.
Music for alto recorder is usually written in treble clef, with concert pitch and notated pitch the same. That puts the instrument’s lowest note on the f in the lowest space on the clef, and its highest note (usually) on the g on the 4th ledger line above the clef.
However, sometimes alto recorder music is written an octave lower than it sounds, with the lowest note being on the 3rd ledger line below the staff and the highest note (usually) on the g on the top line of the staff. When music is written this way, it seems reasonable to me to write it as treble clef+8va and treat it analogously to soprano recorder.
In addition, there is a sopranino recorder that is an octave above an alto recorder. This instrument does not seem to appear in Dorico’s library at all. I would think that the right way to treat it would be analogously to the soprano: if transposed, have it sound an octave higher than written; if not transposed, use treble clef+8va and have it sound as written.
I have never seen music written for sopranino that is transposed an additional octave, unlike music written for alto.
(Andrew, I’ve taken the liberty of combining your two threads about the same general topic into a single one. Please feel free to continue adding further posts to this topic if you have more to say about different instruments in the recorder family.)
Bass recorder is one octave below alto: its lowest pitch sounds as F below middle C. Music for bass recorder is normally written in bass clef, with the lowest note being the F just below the lowest line of the staff.
The default clef for bass recorder, unlike the default for soprano, has an 8va. However, that seems to be decorative only, as when I switch from transposed to concert pitch, it doesn’t change. Analogously with soprano recorders, I think the right treatment is to use bass+8va clef for concert pitch and bass clef without 8va for transposed pitch, with the notes being in the same locations either way.
There is also a great bass recorder, the lowest note of which is the C just below the middle line of the bass clef. This instrument is also missing from the library. As with the bass recorder, it is normally notated to sound an octave higher than written, with the lowest note being on the second ledger line below the clef and the highest note being middle C.
As with the bass recorder, I suggest bass clef+8va for concert pitch and dropping the 8va for transposed pitch.
Finally, there is the (somewhat rare, but not really unusual) contrabass recorder, which is an octave below the bass recorder. This instrument is also missing from the library. As with the tenor recorder, I can see no reason not to notate it in all cases as it sounds, with the lowest note being immediately below the lowest line on the bass clef.
Our messages crossed, so I just added a third part. Off for Thanksgiving dinner with friends; I’ll have at least one more note to add tonight (about somewhat more unusual recorders that are neither in C nor F).
Can’t one just see it that way? instruments (flutes of different sizes) produce sounds.
We are looking for a way to notate for these instruments, so it’s easy for the player to play the instrument. In a way it does and should not matter, whether an instrument is “transposing” or not. The instrument makes noises and the player needs an effective way to read the music written for the instrument. Basically for recorders, there are F instruments and there are C instruments. So as a player I only need to learn two methods of getting the sounds out the instrument. If there is a more unusual instrument (like the voice flute in D), it’s music will still be notated, as if it was an F instrument.
Basically for recorders, there are F instruments and there are C instruments. So as a player I only need to learn two methods of getting the sounds out the instrument.
I wish that were true. But if we are looking at the correspondence between where the notes are on the staff and what one should do with one’s fingers in order to produce the sounds that correspond with those notes, there are at least five different correspondences in common use. I’ll distinguish them by looking at where the note is on the staff that corresponds to the note one octave above the instrument’s lowest note; that is, the note that you play by holding down your left thumb and middle finger and leaving the rest of the holes uncovered:
For soprano and tenor recorders, this note sounds as C and appears in the space immediately above the middle line of the staff.
For alto and sopranino recorders, this note sounds as F and appears on the top line of the staff.
For some music written for alto recorders, this note also sounds as F, but appears in the space just above the lowest line of the staff.
For bass and contrabass recorders, this note sounds as F and is written on the second line from the top (in bass clef).
For great bass recorders, this note sounds as C and is written in the space immediately below the middle line in the staff (in bass clef).
If I am writing music for recorder, I want to be able to do two different things:
When I’m composing, I want the notes on my screen to map directly into sounds in my head as I read them. I want to be able to accomplish this by selecting “concert pitch.”
When I’m producing music for someone to play, I want the printed music to map into finger positions in a way that the player will find most congenial. Different mappings will be more familiar to players accustomed to playing different instruments, and perhaps to players accustomed to reading music from different publishers. In particular, for alto recorders, there are two different widely used mappings from note positions on the staff to fingerings, and I want to be able to choose between those mappings as part of the engraving process.
It appears that for each size of recorders, there are two useful mappings between pitches heard and notes on the page, but those mappings are different from one size of recorder to another. One of these is always concert pitch: that is, the note on the page is an accurate representation of the note one hears. The other treats the recorder as a transposing instrument.
In each case, I’ll list concert pitch first, with the corresponding clef, then the alternative.
Sopranino or soprano: treble clef+8va; treble clef (transpose +12)
Alto: treble clef; treble clef+8va (transpose +12)
Tenor: both alternatives are treble clef with no transposition
Bass or great bass: bass clef+8va; bass clef (transpose +12)
Contrabass: both alternatives are bass clef with no transposition
On top of all of this, there are a few recorders in fairly common use that are neither in C or in F. I suspect that the three most common are the voice flute, also known as the tenor in D, and the alto and bass recorders in G.
For all of these, I think it is sometimes useful to be able to notate music in concert pitch. Other times it is useful to treat them as transposing instruments analogous to saxophones, so that people who play them only once in a while do not have to learn a whole new mapping between notes on the page and fingerings.
It seems clear to me that if one writes for one of these instruments and specifies concert pitch, then one should get concert pitch. So I think the following alternatives make sense:
Alto in G: treble clef; treble clef +2 (that is, the instrument’s lowest note is the lowest space on the staff and sounds as G)
Voice flute (tenor in D): treble clef; treble clef + 2 (that is, the instrument’s lowest note is on the first ledger line below the staff and sounds as D)
Bass in G: Bass clef +8va; bass cleff + 14 (that is, the instrument’s lowest note is just below the lowest line on the staff and sounds as G).
Andrew, thank you for the very detailed listing of all the variants that there exist. You can actually put all these instruments with their notation and sounding specifics into Dorico’s instrument library. The only “difficulty” I see is, give all those variants a unique name. But it is possible - and you are probably one of the few people, who can manage this.
Here some information about different kinds of horns: Concert pitch v. Transposed pitch: But what about the octave? - #11 by pianoleo
I have been arranging for recorders for 50 years plus, and it doesn’t take a player any time at all to see from the notes on the page how to interpret the sheet music.
My feeling is that entangling oneself in altered clefs is ultimately a distraction. I’ve never had a problem hearing the music in my head with some instruments being an octave higher. If one wants to fuss around with clefs, go for it; but I’d hate to see the Dorico Team spend a lot of time worrying about this in lieu of other items on their road map.
Derrek, I hope you will agree with me that when you argue that you wouldn’t find a particular feature useful, that doesn’t mean that no one would find it useful.
I also think that this isn’t a particularly hard problem. I am thinking that the way for me to proceed is to try to define some instruments of my own based on the ones in the library and see how they work out in practice. What I am hoping is that I will learn enough about Dorico’s ins and outs to be able to come up with instrument definitions that can ultimately become part of the standard library.
I entirely agree with @arkoenig, and it is funny that we both started a thread today requesting what I might call “Composer’s Pitch”, which is like Concert Pitch except that, for octave transposing instruments, it respects the octave as well (whether by changing the clef to something more accurate [treble with 8 on top, etc.] as @arkoenig suggests, or through the use of ledger lines.
The Development Team will do what they consider best, and I have no problem with that. Users will suggest what they feel is important to them, and I have no problem with that. But for every change or addition to the program there is an opportunity cost in other features delayed, and we all have to understand that, never knowing how much time and effort a change to the current code will involve.
And this is a discussion board, and everyone has a right to express an opinion. I’m sure we can agree on that too.
My very simple rule of thumb: all recorders are octave-transposing, except the tenor, which, to nicely confuse things even further, actually sounds at pitch but is mostly written with a ‘tenor’ treble clef with an 8 underneath (suggesting a transposition that compensates the normal upward octave shift). But this is no rocket science.
Personally, I can perfectly handle reading recorder parts as they are (also the tenor with its G8 clef). And, still quite personally, I don’t feel any need to see recorder parts in their sounding octave, which, in many cases, would result in unwieldy notation.
If you’re a recorder player yourself, I’d assume this is all second nature to you. Do you really need this?
As far as I can see, this option applies on a per-flow basis, and the default is “off.” If I understand correctly, this behavior implies that it is impossible to create, say, a variety of soprano recorder instrument that (a) uses treble clef + 8va as default, and (b) always respects clef octave indicators. Instead, I must explicitly override the default for every flow in which I want that behavior.
Controlling this option per flow is certainly the most flexible way of doing it, but it seems to me that having a way to do so per instrument would be more convenient on many occasions.
