Is there a way to monitor external MIDI instruments?

Hi, I’ve been playing around with setting up some external synths in my studio to operate from Dorico, using the MIDI Instruments offering under VST & Midi tab, as described here, e.g:

The synths respond fine, but then I realized there appears to be no way to monitor their audio input. Dorico’s audio engine is connected to my audio interface, but I am not sure how to route the return channels back into Dorico’s mixer, and the manual doesn’t really go into detail about midi instruments to describe that side of the workflow.

Is there a way? If not natively, would there be any plugin that could assist me in this department? On Mac I have an audio routing thing called Loopback, and I also have VEPro.

There’s no audio input from anything into Dorico.

Perhaps some plug-in might help.

Do you only need to monitor it? Audio interfaces usually allow for direct (zero latency) monitoring of their inputs. When enabled, input from the external instrument is sent directly to interface’s outputs where it gets mixed with Dorico’s audio.

Yeah, my setup is a bit complicated between two interfaces linked over ADAT, and monitoring off the primary one using AES. The control panel for that main interface (Antelope Orion 32+) is a confusing and complex one, and it took a long time for me to dial in for my studio so I don’t mess with it much. Usually when I am working in a DAW such as Cubase, everything is simply going to Stereo Out to that main AES output, including any midi or instrument tracks which I can live monitor on that same output (rather than needing to monitor separately using the interface).

Long way of saying I’ll have to look into how I can set this interface up to do it, but I was hoping it was easier to do directly within Dorico as I can within Cubase. Curious what the use case is for those midi instruments if they can’t be monitored inside the software… (though I understand that Dorico is not a DAW or recording environment necessitating inputs)

Dorico doesn’t have a built in method to bring Audio into the mixing console like a tracking DAW would provide.

The simplest solution is most likely to take advantage of any monitoring/mixing capabilities built into your audio-interface drivers. Plug audio out from your external kit, to audio in of your interface. Assuming your interface has some kind of ‘mixing console’ as part of its driver package, you should be able to come up with something that will allow you to hear Dorico’s Output at the same time as your Outboard gear.

Beyond this, here are some approaches I’ve taken over the years.

So, here’s one way (out of many, but it’s the next simplest) I do it…though it’s a kludge that breaks ASIO rules, and depending on your system it might introduce too much latency to ‘mix and match’ your external kit’s audio with plugin instruments hosted in Dorico.

I’m using Dorico via the Windows 11 OS…

I use a pair of M-Audio Delta 1010 audio interfaces (So something like 20 audio inputs). My external gear is plugged into these interfaces. Some via analogue connections, some over SPDIF, etc.

I use a plugin called Audio Connect.

I can have Dorico add an AUX Send channel, and host an instance of Audio Connect there in the first effect slot. I can chain other effect plugins lower down in the same channel if desired. Audio Connect in turn grabs an Audio Signal/Stream from my choice of ‘non-ASIO’ drivers of my Delta 1010, and does whatever buffering and jitter control is required to inject my instrument(s) output into the Dorico Mix.

Alternatively, I’ve also hosted it in Dorico’s instrument rack before (with the help of bidule). Something like Kushview Element, or Audio Gridder might also make it possible to host it in the ‘Dorico VST instrument rack’.

Is it worth it? It depends. The only real advantage to doing this is if I wish apply/use the bundled ‘Steinberg Host Only’ effect plugins to process the external kit’s audio. It’s kind of nice to have a fader right there on the Dorico mixing console.

Disadvantages include possible stability issues on some machines (it’s a kludge that isn’t supposed to be done according to ASIO protocol rules), and possibly noticeable latency issues on some systems if you also wish to host and use plugin instruments in Dorico at the same time. For me it’s not that bad…only a few ms, and not that noticeable, but that might not be the case for all systems.

My preferred method is to use ASIO Link Pro or Jack2, and route Dorico’s main audio output stream into a different host that can in turn, bring in the audio from my external kit. This way I can ‘mix’ the signal from Dorico and my outboard gear, and apply whatever processing/mixing I like in this ‘other host’ to ‘blend’ these two mixes together. (If no ASIO Link Pro or Jack2 is installed…some high end interfaces include built-in ‘routing-loopback’ abilities. Also, hard patching with real cables is almost always an option).

For the secondary host…sometimes I use a stand-alone instance of Bidule as the other host/mixing app. This low overhead host also can run as a plugin (if registered, usually there are free, fully featured stand-alone demo versions) and is kind of a Swiss Army Knife hosting/snooping/serving/client/sound-design utility that is so weird yet USEFUL that I don’t know quite how to describe it. I almost always have at least one standalone instance of this running on my system, and use it for all sorts of MIDI/Audio routing/transformation jobs. On Windows Systems, when combined with a virtual MIDI port or two, it helps correct a number USB/MIDI diver issues that are unavoidable byproducts of the way Windows USB<>MIDI driver implementation works.

Sometimes I opt for Cubase and run the TXL Timecode Plugin in Dorico (If I’d also like to involve some audio tracking). The TXL plugin provides a way to lock the Cubase transport with Dorico’s transport using MIDI Time Code (over a virtual MIDI port). Of course TXL is totally optional if I don’t have any need to sync the transports together.

If you’re on a Mac…

Sorry I don’t have enough experience with a Mac to know if ANY of my kludges above apply. My understanding is that you can do similar things as I am describing with Windows (Maybe even better). I simply don’t know what apps and tools are out there to try.

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Thanks for taking the time to explain all that. I took some time to dig in further to my audio interface’s control panel, made by Antelope Audio (Orion 32+ Gen3). Their control panel is notoriously convoluted as any google search and forum searches will attest, so I since I’d been monitoring my digital SPDIF output as my main output for both Cubase and Dorico, this could only take two channels (L/R). However after poking around a bit I discovered there is indeed an option to create mixer outputs combining up to 32 channels each – in other words my very same 2 channel line outs I had been using for Dorico & Cubase, but also 30 more options from my interface’s analog inputs and ADATs. I just wanted to listen to one or two synths so I was able to easily patch those into a mixer selection, and then create a preset where I can monitor that over SPDIF instead. In other words I can flip between monitoring only DAW and then DAW+ Live room.

I am on a Mac, however I looked through all your tools and I am saving them for future use because other needs have come up where I need to do modular routing internally. Audio Gridder looks especially cool, like a VEPro but for audio effects.

Also heard about TXL before, I haven’t gotten around to it yet but I’ve been meaning to try that.

In any case, glad I got it figured out – this will make hybrid scoring a lot more easy and fun. I often like to score first in Dorico and then bring everything over to Cubase for finesse, so as close as I can get to the final sounds as possible using synth patches I’ve created is going to be great.

Cheers!

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No ASIO Link Pro for Mac, but the Mac OS probably has something similar to jack2 built right in to the OS? There shouldn’t be any shortage of possibilities for routing audio streams among apps or out over a LAN network. I’m fairly positive that the Mac OS provides virtual MIDI ports with no extra software required.

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