Is this possible?

Is it possible to reproduce the following passage (from Schumann’s Toccata) exactly as written in Dorico? I tried, but couldn’t find a way to handle the recurring situation at A where an eight note in a middle voice holds into the next measure and the beam must be thinned and centered:
Schumann Toccata.jpeg
I also had difficulty getting rid of all the unwanted rests in the right hand by using the start and end voice feature. Some worked, others stubbornly resisted.

Yes you can by using the Mensurstrich trick that Alex Plötz describe in Scoring notes, and by creating a notehead set that attaches on the “wrong” side of the notes. Here’s an imperfect example, but i have to leave now. I’ll write more tomorrow unless someone takes over!
stems.jpg

Don’t use the start/end voice switch for hiding tests; sometimes it can get in the way. It’s easier using the option in the Edit menu, “Hide rests ”. It does just that.
You can assign a shortcut to speed the process.

To my knowledge, it’s still not possible to change beams thickness… (see https://www.steinberg.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=114496#p625259 )

Besides that, what Claude said gets the result as close as possible. It even looks better if you use slightly smaller noteheads (Dorico uses large noteheads by default); you can set that in Engrave Options > Noteheads.

I’m back!

Josue is correct about rests (fortunately), and the beam thickness (unfortunately).

For the inner voice with the centered beam, enter it as usual (and eighth and a sixteenth). the “eighth” will cross over the barline in two tied sixteenth, as expected. Select that “eighth”, press semicolon, enter 1:1 as a value and enter. Select the tuplet (the number 1), and choose “span barline” in the properties panel. Then, select the note and force duration by typing “o, 4, 5” (without the commas of course). You can then hide the tuplet number in the properties panel. This is copy-pastable as long as the tuplet number is selected, or the tuplet signpost is selected should the number already be hidden.

The centered beam is more involved because Dorico has set limits to the use of centered beams; limits they admitted on being too stringent and which they have promised to revisit. The crux of the matter is that right now, you can’t force a beam to center unless it crosses the middle line. To cheat this, you must move the beams manually in place in engrave mode, which is easy enough, but then the stem on the first note will not be on the right side of the note. Therefore, a new “notehead set” has to be created. In it, the x and y values of the stem attachment have to be flipped between the downstem and upstem, and then tweaked a bit. Then the notehead has to be changed in the score for those first notes. Again, this is copy-pastable, so you only have to do this once.

Feeling generous today after a beautiful weekend of music-making, I send you a Dorico file with those eight bars. If you import it as a flow, the notehead “Wrong Side” will likely be available for your project. I have also included a pic of the values I have chosen for the stem attachment of the new notehead. I realize that you are an engraver and that not being able to thin out the beams is a disappointment, but I thought I could still show you what can be done.
Schumann Toccata.zip (526 KB)

Thanks for taking the trouble to illustrate that, Claude. Very nice. I’ll check out the trick you mentioned. I had considered treating the whole passage as one measure of 8/4 meter and then somehow putting in fake bar lines. I believe Daniel showed me the trick about the note head set on the other side of the stem earlier this year.

And thank you for the information, JosueVIera. Yes, engravers need to be able to adjust beam thickness. Claude was able to produce a good result without it in his example, but there are many cases where this would be impossible.

Actually, I had an ulterior motive is asking. I am trying to determine if Dorico has enough flexibility at this point to be able to handle the various unusual situations that can arise. I don’t want to be in the middle of a big project and suddenly discover that I am dead in the water.

Oops, our posts crossed, Claude. Thank you for the extra information and files which are indeed generous. I will try all of this out today.

Alex’s trick was an unplanned result of Dorico’s ability to span triplets across barlines. All sort of things are possible with it. THe only bit that cannot be accommodated is putting a dot across the barline. You can actually move the dot on the x axis, but at a certain point, it will push the barline over instead of crossing.

I just tried the triplet trick and it worked, of course, but without doing the final o, 4, 5 step for some reason. Very clever.

Having always used a workaround for the dot after the bar line in Finale, I had tested Dorico for this capability and had discovered a limitation, which I think was the one you mentioned. But I would suspect that it can probably be accomplished in Dorico with a similar workaround. Hopefully, Dorico will eliminate the need for workarounds in due course for what might seem to some to be arcane stuff, but is essential to fine engraving.

You know, I was thinking about dots across the line. A much better solution than the one that was discussed a couple of years ago (and in which you participated) is to create a notehead set with the rhythm dot (Bravura>Individual notes). The dot can then become a note (for which it may be preferable to suppress playback), and the stem can then be hidden through the properties panel. In case of short values with beaming across, the “dot-note” has to be put in another voice and rests hidden, as in the example I provide, but for larger values, they can remain in the same voice.

See, you forced me to think!
Dots across.jpg

Claude, you’re right that rhythm dot X offset will eventually push the barline, but there’s nothing to stop you then pulling the barline back using the Note Spacing submode.

Brilliant!

(Not that I get on with this notation, personally. The first time I did the Brahms Liebeslieder Waltzes I was really thrown!)

The following example is dedicated to that lover of dots over the bar line and inventor of the new system for accomplishing the same in Dorico, pianoleo:


It did require a lot of juggling to get the dots into position in combination with spacing the music, so I gave up short of perfection.

I suppose I should be flattered, though I have no recollection of whether this was initially my idea - I suspect probably not! Thanks, though :wink:

Very nice John, except the first edition didn’t actually have the dots crossing the bar line. (In fact the engraver didn’t seem to know what was going on rhythmically!)

Thanks, Rob. Yes, but the first edition doesn’t tie over either, although it does tie over where the half note is tied to an eighth since it was not possible to use a dot in this case. Tieing over being much harder to misinterpret than a small dot after a bar line, it seems most likely (at least to me) that the engraver’s consternation was caused by Beethoven having placed the dots after the bar lines in a way that confused the engraver.

And the spot itself is a perfect example of how this practice can simplify the notation in a very meaningful way. I don’t think Beethoven would have missed this opportunity to use it.