Little problem can't see or write "roll" playing technique

I wanted to use a triangle by default ( halion) .
In the map of HSO Triangle Combi Key , it’s written the name “Roll” for playing technique, but this word doesn’t appear anywhere in the right pannel and I can’t wrtite it using shift+P ?!!

Omision bug?
best regards

Use three strokes tremolo and make sure in your play-back options>timing (cmd-shift-p) that unmeasured tremolo is triggered by three strokes tremolo. I had to solve this problem just… yesterday!

Hello Marc,
Thanks for your tips that to save me time for this time but for me it’s a workaround!
In fact I try to understand the part of playing technique to play other midi note with playing technique.
Your method with tremolo retrigered the same midi note (like gun machine) and I want to trigger another midi note . In my exemple the triangle patch oh hallion offer the possibility to have a dedicated sample (g6 or B6) for roll.
I create a roll “name” in edit Playback Technique… create a roll name in the right panel “Playing technique” so I can right roll over notes but allways the same note in play: I can’t understand why?
It’s a part of this software that I never understand and spend a lot of time but allways a nightmare for me!!?
I post a file for test:
best regards and thanks
triangle_halion_playingtechnique_created.dorico (423.3 KB)

My method does not necessarily make a machine gun effect. It triggers the “roll” playback technique, which (in my file) triggers the Timpani tremolo I set up in my Spitfire Percussion expression map. It does trigger the keyswitch I set for this tremolo or roll effect.
[Edit] ok, now I’m working on your file. As you can see in the percussion map provided by HSO triangle combi key, there are only two articulations. You cannot have open and closed triangle sounds with HSO. Only natural and roll. So what you have to do is make sure there’s a roll playback technique that gets triggered in your score (by a playing technique or a tremolo marking). The problem I have with your file is that even if I put a three strokes tremolo on the note, the playing technique lane in Play mode does not indicate a change. That is not normal…

Here’s what’s missing :

With that, it works

This is where you actually tell Dorico that a three strokes tremolo will trigger the Roll Playback technique.
triangle_halion_playingtechnique_created.dorico (425.7 KB)

Hi Marc,
Thanks to have taken time. the open mark is not important (it was for another text when I tried to put a “open” new playing Technique in the HSO triangle Combi Key 's map to trigged another midi note but doesn’t work allways the same note is played?!!
In fact I try to understand and want to see the little keyboard in the bottom of hallion play the notes I puted in the map.( the triangle was just a sound I took to learn this part of Dorico.
Last week I did a same thing with Kontakt and it was ok…I can’t undersatnd
Best regards

Open the modified project I’ve sent. You’ll see that the little keyboard does play a G6 when there are tremolos on the note. This is what you were looking for, right ? I would consider this solved…

Thanks Marc,
Yes your exemple is working great thanks!
My English is not very good and does not want to take your time or give you the impression that I am attacking. I would just like to understand why sometimes it works and sometimes not by using the same method of playing technique with words to route to other midi notes. I misspoke my question.
So if someone could explain to me why by comparing my example that I posted and this one why one works and the other doesn’t?

thanks and greetings
test_midi_out.dorico (450.6 KB)

Don’t worry, Dup, I haven’t felt any attack ! Sorry if you understood it that way. I’m only trying to help you here :wink: And don’t worry about your english : I’m French.
I’ve studied that last file you’ve sent. The process is quite different. One thing that strikes me is that you don’t seem to be writing a score for an actual player. Which is ok. But don’t forget Dorico’s aimed at providing beautiful scores for real players, not programming machines… So maybe your workflow might seem a little convoluted, if that is what you’re trying to do.
My guess is that your percussion map should work with the triangle the same way it works with the anvil. But no one would want to see such numbers on his/her score :smiley:
What I’ve learned creating the whole Spitfire Percussion expression maps and percussion maps is that the way you are going to program this all depends very much on the library itself, and what sounds, what articulations are provided, and what means it offers to trigger them. HSO sounds are not that rich in articulations — you can download my Spitfire Percussion dorico file (even though it will not play because you don’t own the library) : you’ll see how many different anvil sounds can be triggered and how I programmed it. I learned that with John Barron’s videos and by studying the existing Percussion maps and expression maps. Not sure there really is another way.
Maybe Dr. Paul Walmsley could chime in and explain why your “roll” thing did not work in the first place without adding the percussion playing technique in the percussion playing techniques Editor, while those anvil playing techniques do work. That is a mistery to me, but in any case, if you want to really write something a human being will play, that Percussion playing technique editor is the way to go : that’s where you change the actual shape of the note according to the sound you want the player to make.

Thanks again,
In fact it’s not to write for anything else than for musicians, but it’s the first time that I want to use Dorico to have a sound result! usually I only use it for writing.
I have almost everything vsl and lots of other booksellers and I had not been convinced that a writing software can have possibilities of expression like a cubase sequencer software or others.
This time, I wanted to save time, and I wanted to try but when I listened to the result, I saw that it was wrong!
I had a percussion part (bell) in eighth notes to play, so I took a patch that I made for Kontakt with practically samples of strikes on the edge, on the edge, with the tip of the stick, with the center of the stick, … distributed over the entire keyboard. So with my numbers 60,61,62, etc. which are the midi numbers of the notes, the result becomes expressive (human). Then with the filter function you can select them with one click, then hide them also with one click.

Another example to explain my request, it is for an educational use by score and video: I have patches in kontakt which say the name of the notes so I can make dictations of names of notes, dictations with certain notes hidden whose name we hear, etc … Ditto with time numbers 1,2,3,4 … Chord names … samples with a musical phrase to be played at a particular time.
Indeed my use is a bit special, but Dorico gives more and more possibilities…so why not
best regards
thanks again

Sorry to jump into this thread, but I am figuring out a somewhat similar problem as the OP: trying to map all the sounds available for OT Timpani.

Some of the steps in Dorico are very intuitive and simple, while some others are convoluted and very misleading (Write → Create Playing Technique actually inserts an existing one; while Add → New from right panel creates a brand new technique).

But I just wanted to confirm if my assumption is correct for the following scenarios:

  • to have Dorico generate its own umeasured timpani rolls, I use a 3 strike tremolo notation (standard notation). If I don’t like the resulting sound, I can instead use a 5 strike notation to “exile” this technique so I never have to use it

  • to have Dorico play the recorded unmeasured timpani rolls, I have to create a fake playing technique or to repurpose the 3 strike notation I freed up doing the above

  • to have Dorico play all other recorded unmeasured timpani rolls (crescendo, dim, cresc + accent), I have to create fake playing techniques

  • what is not clear to me is how to set up the recorded tempo-synced rolls in a way that links them to the 2 or 1 strike notation.

If you could shed some light on this @MarcLarcher and either confirm or clarify, I’d be very grateful. Sorry, once again, if I’m highjacking the thread.

I find your questions very spot on and interesting.
I think you have this right in the three first points. I’d add that choosing three strokes tremolo as unmeasured tremolo in Playback techniques is shortcut by the Percussion playing techniques editor, where you can also choose to trigger roll with the three strokes tremolo, and in this case, it’s the sound set by the expression map that gets triggered, not the Dorico based unmeasured tremolo. Which could prove useful when you have other instruments involved, where Dorico’s unmeasured tremolo does the job.
To have some gradual dynamics work with Spitfire Percussion, I have to use a continuous controller (CC1 or CC11, I think it’s the latter that I finally chose). I simply did not use whatever built in crescendo there is in the library, because it’s more suited to DAW than notation software.
In Dorico 3.5.12, there is no way to sync Dorico’s playback to a library (or the other way round), which goes back to my previous statement (DAW vs notation software). But we can expect some improvement there in the next versions, so take it with a grain of salt. Simply do not waste your time now :wink:

I thought this approach (that you also referenced above) is only possible for unpitched percussion and therefore wouldn’t work for timpani. Is that wrong? To verify it, I am trying to find that menu (in the right panel in Write mode) but it’s one of those things that Dorico hides so very well…

yes, timpani are pitched and are thus treated much the same as other “normal” instruments – in other words no percussion map to be allocated. I generally just use three stroke tremolo (with p.t tremolo in the Expression Map) for roll which as a rule requires no extra programming

To my shock and surprise, I have successfully mapped 5 types of single hits and 5 types of recorded unmeasured tremolo samples (one each for 5 types of mallets), AND the on/off damping. The solution was not at all what I assumed earlier.

First, I had to create each mallet as a beater playing technique (normal, soft, baroque, etc). Then in Expression Map I created an empty Natural switch and left it alone. From then on, each beater is a base switch (so they get auto-grouped into mutual exclusion) and pointing to single hits; a timpani roll is simply a base switch with a combined technique of tremolo + specified beater; and damping is an add-on switch that triggers on note-off events.

I had to change Dorico tremolo instruction - contrary to my assumption I had to set “minimum” to go lower in number (set to 3 right now). I think the way this works is that if the tremolo symbol is used in the expression map then Dorico doesn’t attempt to generate a roll on its own. If the symbol is “available” then it would generate tremolo…

However, I’m not able to continue this and create a base switch with a combination of 3 techniques (tremolo, beater and crescendo) in order to trigger recorded dynamic rolls - they default to the available tremolo for the given beater. I’m not sure yet how to solve it…

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Well, I was told to go a different route — which I have — and setting a CC for expression allows me to have rolls with crescendi. But not the swells from the library. Maybe this will be available (and easy to do) in a future version.

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I think I’m wandering around the solution, but I don’t want to get ahead of myself.

Dorico stops auto-generating unmeasured tremolo as soon as the “tremolo” playing technique has been used in a user-created expression map (and set at the specified number of slashes in preferences). This means “tremolo” then becomes just another element in a string of criteria a user has to set in order for Dorico to find the path to the required sample. These strings are any combination of graphical symbols from the score that in this or that unique combo match to entry(s) in the expression map that triggers a sample.

A metaphor: Press the button when you see a “white”, “long”, “dress” (green long dress will be ignored). Or: play this sample when you see a combination of: staccato and mf. Or, mute, marcato and fff

In my case, that string for single hits was:

  • playing technique (beater type) + note length (left untouched, so responding to the score)

The string for recorded tremolos had to be unique from the first one, therefore:

  • playing technique (beater) + playing technique (tremolo) + note length (left unchanged)

Both of them worked like a charm. But it didn’t work when I simply added “crescendo” into a third string to trigger recorded crescendo rolls instead of the plain ones. I think that’s because Dorico was trying to add crescendo via CC1 (as it normally should - I could see it in the MIDI CC lane) while the rest of the string was identical to the previous one. In other words, “crescendo” was the wrong differentiator because it’s activated differently. At least that’s my assumption right now, but I can see it is available as a playback technique if I want it…

The solution, I believe is to once again ensure that I use a unique string used to trigger recorded crescendo rolls . Since I don’t want to touch “crescendo” for the time being, I will consider creating a different “length” string, which might make sense later on for the recorded measured tremolos (I have to map 26 articulations just for timpani) :wink: Hopefully, it will automatically get added to its own exclusion group in the expression map.

If I understand this topic correctly, Dorico expression map is based on Cubase but is slightly different and in some ways expanded. Cubase puts a limit of 4 elements in these strings (so called “combined techniques” in Dorico) and I believe in Dorico this number is unlimited and linked a lot more transparently to playing techniques. Conceptually, Dorico’s map is taking it to another level because the number of possible combinations is expanding astronomically.

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My understanding is your understanding has grown a lot on this matter :wink: