Greetings Y’all,
Loooooooong time Steinberg user (Nuendo 1 days) and i have been on a PC all these years. The recent Win 10 to 11 forced update has put me on my heels. I have built a new PC and with new fans added, top of the line thermal pads on the m.2 drives, modded exhaust fan on the top of the case i am still getting beeps from the MB about temps and other things. Normally new computers are fun-ish to me. This one has been a nightmare. Several of my pals who are serious pro’s have been whispering in my ear about the new Mac M4 Studio (desktops). I spent the weekend looking at all the info i can find about them and from all i can tell, these things are MONSTER computers. My mentor in engineering switched from PC to Mac 1.5 years ago. When i asked him his opinion his reply (which is becoming common for me to hear) was “Why didn’t i do this sooner?”.
At this point i feel like a revolver is at my head. My new PC is a furnace and the new MB (Gigabyte) beeps randomly. Its as if i have R2D2 in the studio with me. I have spent nearly 30 days tweaking, twerking and troubleshooting. New and Improved is always new but rarely improved. I am now prepared to cash in my chips and go the M4 Studio route.
Is this a wise or unwise move?
I am exhausted at teching. I just want to get back to making music.
I’ve had nothing but rock solid, issue free productivity on my Macs. I was running my MBP M3 Max (12p:4e) with 128gig and 8TB NeMe as my main rig and a few months back decided to upgrade my studio and split workstations up so I bought the new Studio M3 Ultra 32-core (“real” cores, not hyper-threading) and it’s been brilliant.
I hesitate saying this just because of all the recent Intel/AMD/CPU/Threading/APM/Performance threads going around, but I’ve done my best to try and make the Ultra struggle, and I’ve not been able to. Just to be clear, I’ve not spent 5 minutes trying to figure out any system-based performance/CPU/APM issue on this guy. I spend more time every day reading and responding to Windows threads . Folks in the forum were recommending the RME (I was an Apollo x8 user) so I got the UFX III and holy cow, I love that guy.
So while the “box” may cost you a bit, I think the actual “cost of ownership” is far less; particularly when you take into account the fact you’ll be producing music and not reading performance tuning articles and watching YouTube. Speaking of which, “beware” the YouTube stuff. Most of that information is just click-bait garbage.
You’ll need to make sure that your go-to plugins are available for Apple Silicon, which most are. Even if you have a can’t-live-without x86/64 VST3, you can run it in Rosetta - but I’ve not had to do that (and I have Metaplugin/Blue Cat Patchwork to handle that anyway).
This is just my personal opinion after being where you have been for a very, very long time. If you have specific questions, fire away and I’m happy to help.
Thor,
Thanks for your reply and vote of confidence.
Yes, the RME stuff is the BOMB diggity! Been using them since the very beginning (Multiface, i think they were called).
Been using RME since 2002 and never once has an updated driver given me a single, tiny, hint of a problem.
I am not a heavy VSTi user. When i use Ivory, Kontakt, Auturia synths, they are one at a time and i normally print them once i am happy with the track. My track counts rarely exceed 100. I do use a ton of busses and parallel processing. Most mixes hover between 40-60 busses. Every channel and bus gets a Slate VMR on it. I do use a lot of plug ins but the heavy hitters are on my UAD Octo card. I will be getting a Helios 3S to get it on the M4.
At the moment, i am looking at the M4 that has the 16 core chip / 64 gig of ram and 1 TB drive.
I have 4 m.2 drives that i will use externally through a OWC Express 4M2. Those are for Video projects (family video edited and rendered from MiniDV tapes), VSTi drives & Libraries and bulk storage. My plan is for the M4’s 1 TB drive to be the OS and current audio projects. Once i am done with the project, move it to mass storage.
After talking to my producer pal (Michael Patterson) who’s a power mac user he assures me the rig i just outlined will be more than enough power for my needs.
In 2001, i was in Los Angeles assisting Michael on a rock album. At the time he was making fun of me for:
Using Nuendo (He was a PT guy)
UAD DSP Cards
Evangelizing about 5.1 mixes! He gave me grief for years.
Being a PC user for DAW
Today, he mixes in ATMOS, loves his UAD cards, still heavily into PT he does adore Cubase and uses it more and more.
So, seeing that he’s moved to my side of thinking, the least i can do is meet him ‘half way’ by switching to MAC! HA!
It’s totally silent, and even with a relatively heavy plugins on a dozens of tracks, I’m not even pushing it. The fans don’t even come on. This is running a Live session (only 11 tracks in live, but heavy processing on each from custom plug-ins I wrote in Max), a 24-track Cubase session taking the Live channel in via ADAT (actually looping out to my x8s and back in to the RME), and my Nuendo session mixing a different song:
Nothing special done, no “tweaking,” no this or that, just loading up all my apps with all plug-ins enabled. And that’s just right now, not me creating “special examples” or trying to make something look good.
I used to be a obsessive frequent visitor here at the Stiny forums. I go back to 2001ish when i was using Nuendo 1.
Its rare that i come here now days as most of my Cubase life is without a glitch.
Before i posted i noticed Thor was quite a prolific poster and i got the inside joke about his knowledge!
I am pleased that he has joined the conversation and happy to learn about Cubase and the current Mac’s being groovy together.
I just got off the phone with Jeff at RME. Making DARNED sure the USB2 protocol of my Fireface UFX (the original one) works on the M4’s USB3. He confirmed it does but do NOT use the rectangle Type A plugs as they are known to have some issues. He said to get a USB Type B to Type C cable and plug it in the back.
That RME phone call was the only thing holding me off from buying a new M4. I had to know it would 100% work.
He told me the only RME to Mac issues they are experiencing are the RME products that are USB3.
Considering i got the OG that is USB2, i am golden!
On this latest PC Build that i am bailing on. I have had to change the case fans on the front of my Coolmaster Haf EB Evo from the 120mm stock to 140mm fans, i have added a rather large fan to the top of the case in MacGyver style for exhausting. The gigabyte MB’s location for the M.2 drives has its OWN heatsink. One that is so so. I have replaced all the thermal pads with high end pads and added additional heat sink with fins to the top just to relieve some of the heat. This thing is a furnace. Reminds me of my Manley MU that i used to own that also served as a room heater!
While i do have the temps now somewhat in order, when i pull up projects my older, lesser computer used to run, the MB starts beeping like R2-D2 being chased Captain Kirk! THEN when i drive the buffer settings down on the RME, it really starts to beeping. All in all, i have spent the last 25 or so days in troubleshooting hell! Its not been fun. I am TIRED of being an I.T. Tech nerd and really want to get back to making noises in my studio again.
On top of all this, my old system had 3 UAD quad cards (PCIe) because new Motherboards dont support lots of PCIe slots anymore, i had to buy a used OCTO to make this system work.
Once my studio life goes back to normal, i’ll be selling those and keeping the OCTO.
I have heard that the M4 Studio is dead silent! This makes me happy! Right now i have 2 front case fans, one rear fan, two fans on the BeQuiet Dark Dark Rock Pro 5, one BeQuiet case fan on the rear for exhaust and one large Noctua fan on the top for additional exhaust and two fans on my GPU. Its like i have a small regional airport next to me! (insert screaming sound here). With the PC future going all in on the M.2 hard drives, heat is going to be an ongoing problem. No thanks, i will just tap out.
first of all: Thor’s advice is rock solid! I was just joking and I am glad you got that:) He’s neither a Mac Fanboy nor a Windows hater.
However, in all fairness I’d like to point out that there are numerous users who have no performance issues at all with Windows rigs right from the start, too. So that’s that.
Since there’s no statistical grounds at all this boils down to a matter of personal experience and preference (on more than just the performance level). I will have to decide whether to go for a Mac or a new Windows rig later this year, too. I still lean towards Windows because I am hesitant to adapt to a complete new OS which involves all sorts of other issues I am not remotly familiar with. Each time a thread begins with „I’m on a Mac xy“ I generally skip it because there are too many Mac specific hurdles I just don’t know about. Looking at the market share of Macs I’d like to say the number of Mac related issues is overproportional – but again: no statistical evidence. Moreover, I cannot say how many of these threads are caused by using outdated Macs and how many of them are performance related.
Of course, Macs have a major advantage per se as they are closed systems. Nonetheless, PCs that are manufactured and tested by professional Audio PC builders seem to work as flawlessly as Macs, too.
Anyways, you had your fair share of performance issues with a new Windows rig and I am not trying to convince you to not go with a new Mac. I am just trying to put things into perspective.
One last thing: Your avatar – good choice
Quote:“ Let me explain something to you. Um, I am not “Mr. Lebowski”. You’re Mr. Lebowski. I’m the Dude. So that’s what you call me. You know, that or, uh, His Dudeness, or uh, Duder, or El Duderino if you’re not into the whole brevity thing.“
In order to get the Octo to work - more precisely, in order to get the UAD MacOS kext driver to work in order to drive the Octo - you’ll need to boot into your system utility on the Mac and “relax your security settings” to allows unsigned drivers to run. It can be confusing, and UAD leaves out some of the steps, so ping me before you get to that point and I’ll put together a step-by-step for ya with screen shots, etc. It can be a little daunting, so ping me when you’re ready.
Yeah, i would never hub up my audio interface. That is asking for trouble.
I was even going to get a new high end USB cable (Oyaide NEO d+ USB). While i am swapping stuff out it makes sense to go all in and get high end cabling!
Now i just gotta break my brain of all things Windows and learn the ways of the MAC.
In Windows, i am comfortable rooting around in registries and tinkering somewhat deeply into the brains of it to tweak it out. Not fearful of mucking around in bios either.
I have a fishing tackle box i use for all my extra PC parts (from over the years). I suppose i can toss all that stuff!
Learning the ways of Mac at my old age is a tad intimidating but i am ready to take it on!
Actually, for the RME, I think you’ll want to explicitly get a 2.0 rated cable just to make sure. The TB port will automatically step down to 2.0 for the RME, so you may not want a “smart cable” (they actually have circuits in the ends) to get in the way of that. Just a suggestion to at least have an Old Skool cable on hand
Ah, I didn’t know the M4 version of the Studio had explicit 3.0 ports. The Ultra is TB5 all around
Looks like the 2025 Studio M4 does indeed have USB-C on the front 2 ports. Since the RME is only 2.0, I think you’d be wasting $50. Maybe get both (the 2.0 should be like $5) and send the one back after testing
But do whatever RME said before you follow my advice
I appreciate your perspective. As i mentioned earlier in this thread, PC’s are moving in a direction that vexes me. Fewer PCIe slots. Blazing hot M.2 drives which means more cooling needs. I am one of those oddballs who does NOT feel comfortable putting liquid cooling in my studio computer. I dont allow drinks on my studio desk for the same reason. Liquid + Studio gear = death!
I have had a good run of Studio PC’s since 2001. This new one has broken me. It was NOT a shabby build either.
I know you’ll probably ask, so here it is:
|Motherboard|Gigabyte X870E Aorus Pro|
|CPU|AMD Ryzen 9 9950X|
|PSU|be quiet! Power Zone 2 750 Watt Fully Modular 80+ Platinum ATX 3.1|
|RAM #1|Corsair Vengeance Grey 64GB 5200MHz DDR5 Dual Profile Memory Kit|
|RAM #2|Corsair Vengeance Grey 64GB 5200MHz DDR5 Dual Profile Memory Kit|
|NVMe #1|Crucial T700 Gen5 NVMe M.2 SSD 2 TB|
|NVMe #2|Crucial T700 Gen5 NMVe M.2 SSD 2TB |
|NVMe #3|Crucial T700 Gen5 NMVe M.2 SSD 4TB |
|NVMe #4|WD Black SN850X Gen4 NVMe M.2 SSD 4TB|
|CPU Air Cooler|be quiet! BK043 Pure Rock Pro 3 LX|
BeQuiet Dark Rock Pro 5 CPU cooling tower
GPU| ASUS Dual GeForce RTX 3060
I am of the opinion that the Motherboard has some design issues as far as cooling.
