Markers shift by as much as 250ms

Here’s something that I noticed occasionally happening in Wavelab 7 … and appears to be happening at least as frequently (if not moreso) in Wavelab 8.

At some point between closing and reopening a file, track markers shift by as much as 250ms. I notice this happening on CD Track IN & OUT markers because those are the only markers I pay close attention to. It may also be happening with other markers.

For example, if a marker was at 02h30mn500ms, when I reopen the file, it’s now at 02h30mn250ms.

My particular job requires me to insert 3.5 seconds of room tone BEFORE and 0.5 seconds of room tone AFTER every track marker. At first, I thought the shifting was some artifact of the way I was inserting the room tone. So I began paying VERY close attention and measured the space each time to confirm correct times. Yet still, later on, when I reopen the file, the markers shift. They seem to ALL shift the same amount. For example, the CD track END marker at the end of the file used to be at the VERY end, now it’s 250ms ahead of the end.

My company requires the spacing around markers to be exact, and it’s very cumbersome to have to manually fix each marker after this error occurs. Do you know what might be going on here?

The files I edit are typically between 2 and 4.5 hours long.

Wavelab 8.0.1
Windows 7

There must be something wrong in your process - if we all had the problem WL would be impossible to work with. Now, what do you mean with file? Montage, Basic CD or Wave file? And do you really burn CDs from this ‘file’? If that’s the case you may want to look into CD frames and whether the option to ‘move CD markers to next CD frame’ is activated.

Wave file.

Nope. I render each in/out pair as an MP3 file. (Chapter 1, Chapter 2, etc)

I don’t see what could be causing this. Do you use the CD Wizard?

I do not.

I’ll try to keep an eye out for any useful data concerning this issue. Could the long file lengths be a contributing factor? (2 to 4.5 hours.)

In the Wave editor, CD track markers are quantized to the nearest CD frame. Maybe that what you see (yet, a CD frame is only 13 ms). Since apparently you don’t burn CDs but just extract regions, why not using eg. Generic Region markers?

Good point. I’ll give that a try.

The trouble with all other in/out markers is the lack of a splice option – that is, being able to place a simultaneous out/in. Unless I am overlooking this functionality. Without a splice, I can’t use 'em.

Maybe just for troubleshooting you can?

I’m happy doing a short experiment, but the problem seems to happen on long files after some time. I can’t do this on a 4 hour work file.

I performed an experiment using a CD Maker and an error marker. The results are interesting but befuddling.

In this first image, you’re looking at the very end of a file. As the highlight shows, the CD End marker is 42ms from the end of the file.

And in the following image, you can see the Error marker is 52 ms from the end of the file. (10 ms from the CD marker.)

In the next image, I select a 50ms random bit from earlier in the file, in preparation to cut it.

After cutting, I review my markers. If everything is working as it should, they should be the exact same distance from the end. But in the next image, we see the CD marker is now 38 ms from the end, a difference of 4 ms. Incidentally, the above cut was a “smooth delete.” I also tested with a regular delete (not shown). The regular delete also created a difference in length. (The resulting space was 45 ms after a regular delete.)

But what about the Error marker? I would guess that it would also move 4 ms. Let’s check this.

No, it hasn’t budged. It’s still 52 ms from the end. So this error seems to affect CD Markers but not Error Markers.

Of course, 4ms is not much. But after hundreds of edits, it keeps accumulating and eventually becomes significant.

CD marker quantization is the reason of all this, because markers are re-quantized after edits. CD markers are meant to be used with Basic Audio CDs.
But one big question: why don’t you use the Audio Montage to do your edits? In the Montage, the markers are not quantized when editing in the montage (they are only quantized while burning).

But one big question: why don’t you use the Audio Montage to do your edits?

Because for what I’m doing (editing mono audio book files) I need all the functions that come with a waveform editor, not a multi-track editor.

Can you add a splice marker for a marker style other than CD markers in the next update? This would solve the issue for audio book editors everywhere.

Can you add a splice marker for a marker style other than CD markers in the next update?

No, sorry.

But then, why not using Generic markers (yellow markers). If you need to split your files later, the Auto Split tool can do this.

I use yellow markers for something else. Also, I name the CD markers the final chapter names, so when I render, the files are automatically named.

This is standard practice for anyone editing audio books. And I’m not the only one who uses Wavelab for audio book editing. All the editors at my company use CD markers to split chapters. We don’t care so much about the CD marker. We care about the out/in splice.

Why won’t you consider adding a splice marker for another marker type? I can guarantee this will be helpful to hundreds of audio book editors if not also other users.

Perhaps being able to turn off CD marker quantisation until required would be an easier solution?

Perhaps being able to turn off CD marker quantisation until required would be an easier solution?

Right. But I can’t do this for 8.0.2.

But I have found a trick. Use Generic Region Markers, and eg. CD Track index markers for Split points. Then once all is finished (ie. no more edits to do), use the Convert Marker tool: this will replace your markers without quantizing them.

Thanks, PG,

I will try this. One of my company’s other editors suggested this as well (placing another type of marker and then converting at the end).

PG, this works. I make a particular type of marker (in my case, a Playback marker) for every chapter start. Once I’m finished with the edit and QC process and ready to render, I convert Playback markers to CD In/Out markers. No marker shift.

Thanks. I’ll use this method until the quantize on/off is implemented (or you create another type of splice marker, either way).

I thought this sounded familiar,
back in WL6 the Edit Marker box had an option for “Quantize to CD Frame” which seems to have gone away in WL7 & 8

I can see the point though, what’s the point of a CD marker that’s not on a frame boundary? (apart from in Tony’s case).