Mid/Side recording

[thenowhereman]

I haven’t done Mid/Side recording in a couple of years, since I was using C5 probably. I had the occasion to do some Mid/Side recording yesterday with C7.5.2 and I am not achieving the same effect. The method I uses was the Mid(Cardiod) mic on one channel and the Side(Fig 8) mic on a second channel. After recording I would duplicate the Side channel, Pan one side Left and one side right, invert the phase on one of the side channels, pull the faders down and then link them. As the volume of the side channels was raised the width of the sound field was spread.

I tried the same method with C7.5.2 and there seems to be no widening effect as the faders on the side channels are raised. Anyone had this same thing happen? Just curious as it can be a wonderful tool with a single acoustic guitar or piano

[Rotund]

If the side channels are linked, as you say, you maybe inverting the phase
on both side channels by accident.
Mid/Side works great here.

[mart]

Your method is the same as the one I use. Must be something wrong with your monitoring perhaps. Are you sure Control room isnt set to MONO?

[Oliver.Lucas]

Try voxengo msed. It’s free and a very convenient way to handle ms stereo.

[marQs]

Mix6To2 can also be setup as an MS decoder.

[twilightsong]

It’s the copying the track part I’m not sure about. Why not just set up the 3 mono channels before you record – mid, side+, and side-… where the input to the two side channels is the same. but you flip the phase on one. My brain isn’t capable of figuring complicated things like this out, but if the original side mic has both signals, and then you copy it and flip the phase, you’re actually cancelling the entire side signal out –

[foolomon]

@twilightsong

It’s the copying the track part I’m not sure about. Why not just set up the 3 mono channels before you record – mid, side+, and side-… where the input to the two side channels is the same. but you flip the phase on one. My brain isn’t capable of figuring complicated things like this out, but if the original side mic has both signals, and then you copy it and flip the phase, you’re actually cancelling the entire side signal out –

The way he’s describing how he did it is correct. I’m not sure why it doesn’t work, but I distinctly remember the process.

The only thing I can think of is that the 8 pattern was up-down during recording instead of left-right.

[marQs]

@twilightsong

It’s the copying the track part I’m not sure about. Why not just set up the 3 mono channels before you record – mid, side+, and side-… where the input to the two side channels is the same. but you flip the phase on one. My brain isn’t capable of figuring complicated things like this out, but if the original side mic has both signals, and then you copy it and flip the phase, you’re actually cancelling the entire side signal out –

Yes, copying + flipping the phase completely cancels the signal when set to the same pan position. But the +/- phase tracks are panned hard L/R and set in relation to the mid mic which is dead center.

When I record MS I do it on a stereo track. Left = M, right = S. Why? Because it’s much easier to do edits including audio warp on it. Just put a Mix6To2 plugin in the first insert, channel 1 (M) linked, channel 2 (S) also linked but with right side phase inverted. Simple, easy, effective

[foolomon]

Does that work (recording in stereo) well?

The whole point of using the two mic technique with the side mic in figure 8 is to avoid picking up much of the center sound cone.

Or are you saying you do that but simply pan the side mic hard right in the mixer when recording?

[marQs]

No, no just hard right. Take a look at Mix6To2: it’s an internal mixer so to speak. Each channel is doubled up in the plugin actually, can be panned by setting different levels for L/R (per channel) and also has the option to flip phase.

Looks like this:

Saves yourself from a track mess in your project window.

[twilightsong]

Here’s what I’d like to know: when using M-S recording, does it work if one positions the source off-axis from the Mid mic? What I’m getting at is, how does locate the position of a source recorded M-S in the stereo field?

I used to do a fair amount of this, but at present I don’t have a figure-8 mic with which to experiment with –

[Tommy-boy]

@twilightsong

Here’s what I’d like to know: when using M-S recording, does it work if one positions the source off-axis from the Mid mic? What I’m getting at is, how does locate the position of a source recorded M-S in the stereo field?

I used to do a fair amount of this, but at present I don’t have a figure-8 mic with which to experiment with –

yes, source can be off-axis. SRA (Stereo Recording Angle) is largely determined by the type of mic chosen for M (Omni, fig8, wide card, card, supercard) and the ratio of M to S when matrixing.

Usually, when I seek to determine stereo recording angles, I use these websites (made by the same guy):
http://www.sengpielaudio.com/Visualization-XY-E.htm
http://www.sengpielaudio.com/SRAflash.swf

However, neither of these address m-s directly. If you were using a fig 8 for the M, i suppose you could just look for the SRA for Blumlein configurations, which are mathematically equivalent to M-S using a Fig 8 as the M.

Found this link for a Sennheiser article on MS from an old Gearslutz thread. It address the SRA of MS configs with different M mics.

Cahoots — Ann Arbor Coworking Space

-Tom

[BriHar]

The best and simplest real world demonstration of MS technique I’ve seen is on the “Recording a Choir” segment of the ASSR tutorials by Alan Parsons. An added interesting point is that it is shown in Cubase.