In Dorico 3.1 version history it states: If explicit CC7 or CC10 automation data is present, the initial value from the MIDI fader in the Mixer is no longer output in preference to the automation when starting playback. I am finding this to be the case which is great…I am also finding that even when there is NO explicit automation data present, Dorico no longer sends out a CC7 reset command. In 3.0.10 it would always reset to 100 when stoping playback, which I guess was the fader value (I never use the Mixer in Dorico as I use VEPro). This new behavior is most welcome IMHO…Thanks!, but just checking that this is the expected behavior, even when there is no explicit automation data, and checking that it will stay this way. As I said, for me, this is much better now…
Grainger2001 hello,
Where here Dorico Pro 3.1 still sends CC7 data to Kontakt… Did you find any option to turn it off? I think it is still not presented.
Hi Thurisaz,
I remember your post about Kontakt and it also came up when I searched the forum for CC7. I have done some more checking and this is what I have found: Using Dorico 3.1 and VEPro on the same machine, I am finding the same behavior as before, even when there is is explicit CC7 data in the Play lane. However, I also use two slave computers running VSL VIPro players within VEpro Instances…For these slave computers, the CC7 data does not go through anymore and the CC7 Fader stays in whatever state it was left in. This was not what happened in 3.0.10, where the same thing occurred as you experience…Midi reset on CC7 was always sent. This seems strange…firstly that it is different on my slave computers rather than locally, and then the fact that the version history says that if there is explicit data in the CC7 lane of PLAY mode, then this should not happen…and it seems like it still is…
Maybe some other users can check?
I know Paul normally chimes in on these sort of topics…do you have any insights Paul?
Consistent behavior would be useful…
Thank you
Grainger2001,
Very interesting… I have serious problem with the Elicenser… I’m not able to run both Dorico and VE Pro 7 together, with the latest version of eLicenser software… But for they work. Which version of eLicenser software you are using?
I’m running them both on the same Workstation.
Hi Paul, What I mean by ‘reset’ is that the fader jumps back to 100 as soon as you hit PLAY. It seems to do this regardless of whether there is CC7 automation data or not. What I was finding was that with the advent of v.3.1, this was not happening on my slave machines, but still does happen when I use VEPro instances on the same machine as Dorico. I found this perplexing, but I think what Thurisaz and I are both asking is: Can Dorico stop outputting a Midi CC7 = 100 message every time you hit PLAY?
Yes, Dorico’s Mixer should behave like the one in Cubase. No any data to the instruments, unless it’s set by the user!
I would like to add a small Feature Request here: Please, add Volume indications to the Channel Faders!
If you slide the faders up, or down, nothing gives you information about the decibels…
I should add to my question in my post at 8-10pm above: Can Dorico stop outputting a Midi CC7 = 100 message every time you hit PLAY?..Or can we have an option to turn this off.
Grainger2001,
Option to turning this off could actually make the things more problematic. The best solution is already presented in Cubase. All CCs are inactive until you modify them by recording data with controller, or manually by the pencil tool. No other way will work better than this one!
The team behind Dorico could ask their colleagues who work on Cubase for assistance.
This behaviour is intentional. When playback starts, the cc7 is sent according to its value in the midi mixer. A couple of people have requested the ability to disable this, and so we’ll add this to our backlog. I think we have a good enough understanding of the requirements to do it without assistance.
Paul hello,
That’s great! Could I share an idea about the activating of CC7. This could happen automatically when the user starts recording data, by controller, or manually for CC7. But this should activate it per channel, not globally! In case we need to edit the CC7 just for certain instruments.
Could be some Option for example: [Activate CC7 Volume Globally] [Activate CC7 Volume Per Instrument]( This one will disable the current behavior of the Mixer and will make to work in the Cubase style) . It could be placed somewhere in the Preferences in a new section Mixer, or Mixer Settings.
This is just an idea on this topic.
Reviving an old thread to ask two questions, since I’ve recently discovered that this is the cause of the previously unexplainable volume changes in my Kontakt instruments:
You mention that this is intentional behavior. I don’t doubt this, because it seems likely that other DAWs etc. do this. But can you clarify to me, a MIDI programming newbie, why this is desirable? If Dorico’s mixer is already updating the Volume / Pan internally, what is the benefit of sending the CC’s to downstream instruments if they’ll also update, seemingly doubling the effect? Am I thinking about this wrong?
Is the requested feature to turn this off available? Any workarounds (outside of updating all of my VSTs) available?
In the case of Kontakt, there are (at least) 4 different faders that affect the level of each instrument:
Dorico’s MIDI channel fader
Dorico’s audio channel fader
Kontakt’s MIDI channel fader
Kontakt’s audio channel fader
Firstly, Dorico has no way of knowing which MIDI channel is connected to which audio output inside the plugin. It assumes MIDI channel 1 => audio output 1. By default in Kontakt everything is routed to the same audio output, but Dorico doesn’t know whether you have changed that. So in the case that a plugin has multiple input MIDI channels but only one output, Dorico also needs to have a MIDI fader (eg this is essential for NotePerformer). Pretty much all plugins respond to the CC7 volume control, so Dorico’s MIDI fader sends this when you start playback or move the fader. This can also be automated by editing the CC7 profile in Play Mode.
Meanwhile, Kontakt has a fader on each instrument, but despite looking like an audio fader (it’s labelled in dB), it actually responds to the MIDI CC7. So if you change the instrument fader inside Kontakt then any changes will be overwritten by any host (most of them) that send CC7.
So generally it’s better to ensure Kontakt and other plugins are set up with a separate audio output for each MIDI channel, and then use the Dorico audio mixer. There isn’t the ability to suppress sending of MIDI CCs for volume and pan at the moment, but it’s something we’ll consider for the future.
Paul, just to not let you think you are doing a lot of work for nothing, let me please explain why sometimes this CC7 ‘reset to default’ message can be problematic.
As you explain, instrument presets in virtual instruments are already programmed, so that they have an internal balance between all the different volume stages.
Resetting the main MIDI Volume may be harmless when dealing with a single instrument. When the instruments are as many as the ones in a full orchestra, reprogramming all of them to balance the orchestra becomes a huge work.
While I understand (and agree) that having a startup CC7 value for each track is good hygiene, this is not always the fastest way to work. I personally like to start listening to a raw mockup after having applied a playback template, and only after that going on fine-balancing the orchestra. With all the CC7 values set to the same value, the raw mockup may become useless.
At least with kontakt you can untick ”accept *** controllers for volume and pan” from the settings of every instrument - I hope everyone is aware of that!
I have said it (too?) many times here, but when ”audition notes when selected” is unticked from dorico preferences, dorico still sends controller data when selecting notes. @PaulWalmsley if you could please add this to some kind of backlog, I’ll promise to never bring it back again…
But the goal is not to prevent these controllers to be received from Dorico. It is of preventing them to be received when not explicitly written into a track.
Other players allow for filtering out these data (in Synchron Player, just change the assigned CC), but filtering them would prevent any control when you want to fine-tune the balance, and save it in a Dorico project.
Don’t some Cubase users have a phantom measure at the start of their templates specifically to set controllers to their personal preference before the music begins?
I imagine you can find some users who do all kinds of things personally, I set and often automate each track as it comes, because no two projects are the same.
It is probably time to revive this topic once more. Am I correct that there is still no option to turn off this feature of setting CC7 to 100 when starting playback?
As Paolo_T and others explained in some libraries, like all VSL libraries, instrument relative volume is balanced by the manufacturer for a typical orchestral setup using CC7. Dorico ruins this balance when it starts playing. This volume balancing using CC7 in the plugin is also often used when using libraries from multiple companies in one piece. .
The only way to counter this annoying reset is to enter a line at the start of each flow with the correct balanced value in the CC7 automation lane but this is a huge amount of work. Example the Rite off spring, part 1 has 60+ instruments and with 7 parts in 7 flows. So more than 400 entries needed just because there is no way to turn this feature off.
