Mixing/Mastering: When is Good Enough Good Enough for You?

I posted a similar thread in the Lounge section a while back with this whimsical meme that most of us can relate to.

The question’s answer can definitely vary depending on the goal. If on a deadline and for commercial project, that’s one thing. But in my case it’s a very serious passion but I do not have those constraints. So somewhat of a luxury.

Due to how forgiving Cubase can be, getting a composition to sound good on a smartphone and other destroys-frequencies platforms can be frustrating in and of itself. No matter how good the work sounds in Cubase.

One thing I know one has to do if one can is to… step away from a project when the obsessive micro tweaking becomes OCD and ultimately not productive.

I’m at this point with my project and will have to do this.

I’ve had to throw up my hands sometimes and go back to an older .bak or .cpr because the tweaks made things worse… Embarrassing.

One user - @Reco29 - shared the following page at that earlier posting which is in one sense sonic philosophy addressing this overall issue, but I’m interested in basic approaches regardless of genre.

Mine is more quasi-cinematic, prog rock-ish in slower bpm, so more layered and complex than EDM and the like. Not better, I just have more "Oh, crap, I should tweak this a bit more…" places to get buried in.

So I welcome your input on how you deal with this dilemma.
Thanks.

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The Lounge is an excellent place for this kind of a discussion.

Interesting topic, @Newsoniclight :slight_smile:

This is something that happens regularly to every single artist and mixing engineer out there. Nothing to be embarrased about! You can’t possibly know until you know.

To add more “material”:
Gregory Scott - the author of the article you have linked above - also hosted the highly recommendable podcast The UBK Happy Funtime Hour. A hilarious and at the same time informative podcast on all questions related to music production. Nice one.

Also a good read for those who like to delve more into the philosophical aspects of the question asked above is the book “The Creative Art” by Rick Rubin.

Not exactly an answer, I know… :wink:

Being in the position of being able to, ahem, please myself, OK is plenty good enough for me.
My big issue is adding or subtracting sections/tracks/parts, or redoing same.
I’ve had projects grow from 3 minutes to 30 minutes. :scream:

@Googly_Shakespeare - Well, that hasn’t happened to me yet. I tend to try to keep my stuff under 6 minutes. I get quickly overwhelmed if I had longer pieces - I already freak out enough - lol.

@Reco29 - The podcast looks interesting but I already overload on info about mixing and mastering as it is. Example:

I only use VSTi and the whole realm of recording analog/IRL instruments (I hardly ever even use my old Korg Trinity’s sounds, I just use it as a MIDI keyboard because its keys semi-weighted keys are a joy to use (buttery and responsive unlike many modern affordable MIDI keyboards).

IRL recording such as drums, guitars, etc. is beyond me even though I understand the principles. Which that guy covers it seems.

Just started mastering for the first time since I started using Cubase in 2002. Yeah, I know… way late in the game, been just exporting from my full projects. But at least I keep learnin’ stuff, and pitfalls and all, getting better at it all. :smiling_face_with_sunglasses:

Yes, Gregory Scott is a drummer so he’s into drum recording as well. But that’s just a very very small portion of the podcast which is basically about everything related to music and most of all - struggling to get things done.
For example, you can see how Gregory is trying to finish songs for his album by trying all sorts of things over the years. You can see how he is fighting to finish a mix over months. Overcoming creative barriers, coming up with new insights, changing perspectives and trying out new approaches. Very down-to-earth. On top, you hear Gregory and Nathan cracking up - it’s hilarious. Moreover, they provide good insights on compression, acoustic room treatment, mixing in the box and much more. Take the info which seems interesting or valuable and ditch the rest.

Haha, sounds like I’m trying to sell that podcast. Just saying it’s about a lot of things and your question is right in the middle of it.
I very much enjoyed listening to their podcast. But that doesn’t mean it’s for everyone. I would try a couple of episodes starting from the beginning and see if it’s for you.

@Googly_Shakespeare 30 minutes - wow! But why not, a masterpiece is not defined by its length. If it feels right - go for it :wink:

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I’ve got two basic answers to the question on when a mix is finished, probably with a whole bunch of sub-answers. :slight_smile:

One answer is in the case of a deadline, such as for any specific pitch opportunity where, if it’s not submitted by such and such a date and time, the song/recording doesn’t get considered. For that case, it is whatever the best I can do to get the submission in ahead of the deadline is what is “done” (for now, at least). If I can’t get something that is at least “good enough”, then I won’t be able to submit, but sometimes “good enough” may not be ideally what I’d want to pitch if I had more time.

This happened to me very recently with an opportunity that needed an original Christmas song for a movie opportunity, via a music library. Writing the song took me longer than optimal, and that put a lot of time pressure on getting something recorded in time. What I submitted was somewhere between what I’d have normally considered a work mix and a rough mix, but it still “felt like a record”, and I got it in maybe an hour or two before the deadline. The good news is the library signed the song/recording – whether they ended up pitching it to the movie company or not I have no clue. BUT I knew at the time that I wouldn’t want to release that recording as a single as it stood. There were a number of issues I recognized to be compromises that basically just kept “mixing as you go” aspects that were meant to be placeholders until I had time to do “a real mix”, including the lead vocal processing, lack of mix automation, and more.

The other answer is in the case of something I feel good enough to release, be it as a single or part of an album, where there generally aren’t fixed time limits, though there may occasionally be some (e.g. if it is a holiday release that either has to be in distribution by some latest date or wait until a year later). Over the course of working on a recording, I tend to do a lot of mixes. Some are just work mixes, where I don’t have all the elements of the arrangement in place, and I’m using temporary processing (especially on vocals) just to more or less make it feel like a record in order to evaluate the production in process as I add components. I tend to do car listening tests whenever I get to a breaking point (and have a conveniently-timed need to drive somewhere, even if just my weekly grocery shopping trip). Others are rough mixes, where I’m starting to work toward a final mix, but with recognized components I know I’ll need to work on later – this is often especially the case with lead vocal processing, where I may start out with a single plugin scenario then break things out to multiple buses, including possibly automating some elements. One key difference between what I consider a rough mix and a final mix candidate is fader (and sometimes effects) automation, which I tend to do relatively late in the game after “getting the sound” on all tracks and submixes at a basic level.

In this case, I keep doing listening tests as I’m going, making notes from those tests, until such time as I either don’t have any more notes or decide that whatever I do have notes on will have to do because I can’t do any better than where things stand at that point, and a project can’t go on forever. It’s got to go out the door at some point.

In the case of the Christmas song I alluded to above, the mix the library signed was the third mix. That was actually a far lower number than might be typical, in large part because there was a very short deadline, and I was running up against time just getting the arrangement together. The one I ultimately ended up dubbing as final for an upcoming single (releasing December 1st) was the sixth mix. That was also a relatively lower number of mixes than my typical case, in large part because the mix that I pitched to the library was already sounding pretty good, just not something I wanted to release. But I’ve had some more challenging projects go upwards of 20 mixes to get to final – I think my record may be 27 for one of the songs on my most recent album (Chasing Rainbows).

What’s the difference between some of those late-stage mixes? Typically, it is that there is something that is bugging me. One thing that turns up more often than other things in car listening tests is bass resonances and/or conflicts between the kick drum and the bass. I use a number of tools in my (small bedroom home) studio to try to catch what I can in different monitoring scenarios, but one thing I somehow seem to miss more often than other things is bass resonances that vibrate the speakers in my car. Other times it might be something like the balance of the vocal versus the instrumental tracks, or something like an instrumental solo that is either not quite loud enough or a little too loud. Or maybe some weird resonance on the lead vocal. Or…

It’s not that the recordings sound bad at that stage. It’s just that something is bugging me, and I make notes then try to figure out how to address it, preferably without damaging something else in the process.

FWIW, I’m using all virtual instrument tracks, with the exception of vocals, but I am trying to have my recordings sound like an actual band most of the time. So, for example, guitars are virtual guitars that I’ve played on a keyboard and/or programmed.

I tend to use the Waves NX plugins (e.g. CLA NX, Ocean Way Nashville NX, etc.) for “listening in various environments” to help me get a sense of how things will sound on different types of speakers (the CLA one emulates a boombox in addition to other speaker types), in addition to listening on my monitors, my computer speakers, and just straight headphones (without the environment emulation). Those tools have helped me cut down somewhat on the typical number of car listening tests I need to get to a final mix. I’ll also listen at different volume levels (e.g. taking it down about -18 dB from my normal level) to try and ferret out balance issues, and also go to another room to see how balances work when not as near to my speakers. There are always tradeoffs, so it’s a matter of picking and choosing. I also use visual tools, like iZotope Tonal Balance 2, to help me “see” issues my hearing may not be catching. And I do listen to reference recordings alongside the recording I’m working on at the moment (using the same monitoring tools).

Perhaps, at some level, there is also some influence from just wanting to finish a project so I can move on to another. :slight_smile:

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I sometimes make ‘ Notes ‘ after an attempted mixdown with things that might want tweaking & then leave it alone for aweek or so. Give my ears a rest from it.

I then go back to it, read the Notes i made - to jog my memory - & then try a fresh mix.

Then … then .. tweak it some more.

ISometimes it helps. Sometimes i give up . Say that will do & move on. Life is too short to be forever stuck in never ending loops.

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That’s easy. When the track sounds good enough in my car which has the worst sounding sound system ever installed in a car by a major American car maker to have a premium brand label attached to it. A car sound system which will make even the greatest classical recordings by Deutsch Gramophon sound like total garbage, not to mention hip modern hip hop and EDM releases that contain an over abundance of low frequency sub woofer twerk sonics. :upside_down_face:

But back on a serious note. I work in more traditional music genres and usually need to have the tracks sound as good demos which then gets passed on to publisher and others. I don’t believe you can truly master in a home studio or on headphones as you will never have the room or room treatment that a specialized pro mastering house will have. If you do have a commercial release that you hope will pickup steam in streaming, you are better off to send it to a mastering house and paying your one time fee. You only get one chance to impress a potential fan listener these days. You don’t want to blow it.

But you can defiantly apply some learning and knowledge about audio engineering and sound frequencies and how they behave in normal residential living spaces and what those sorts of rooms do to sound frequencies and the way you hear (or don’t hear!) and perceive them during the home mixing and mastering process and why those tracks don’t translate well across all mediums equally. My setup is genelec 2010s and Arc Studio and some room treatment and decent bus compresso. My biggest problems are still the positioning of the windows in the studio and am in the process of looking into the feasibility of moving that studio into outdoor dead sound wooden shed environment where my biggest dangers will be various wildlife rodents nesting underneath it and coming out to attack me when their babies hatch every spring .

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i think sometimes less is more … when you have to tweak it very hard maybe you are to long concentrated on the stuff you loose your oversight of the mix … sometimes it can also be the source that isn’t great and then even with lots of tweaking you will be frustrated … the thing is to think minimalistic and do only tweaks when there is a real reason on not just because you can … sometimes something else is the problem then the track you are heavely trying to fit in , maybe less eq on this or that , maybe the level of another track or bus is too loud , maybe some panning could be more usefull …. it is difficult to say without an exemple

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It would be easy to fill multiple advent calendars without ever opening one door with the same advice :wrapped_gift: :christmas_tree:

Door 11: “Play your mix while doing something else like reading a magazine. If you are not negativly disturbed then your mix is ready to go.”

Advent? They closed in the 80’s man! You mean “RME Calendar!”

24 audiointerfaces - each year?? What sort of setup do you have in mind - a 72-1 surround setup in a christmas maze?

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YES!!!

In a KORN MAZE specifically!!!

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Coming back to @Newsoniclight 's topic: I think it’s indeed a good approach to collect all sorts of ideas since there is no dedicated answer.

So here’s another one:

Play your mix in the presence of someone else in the room and force yourself to not comment on the mix while it plays.

  1. You will most probably know in an instant what you’d like to change because in this moment you will also hear it through someone else’s ears. Jot down a few notes after listening.
  2. Secretly observe the reactions of the other person in the room. Does the mix evoke physical reactions at specific points? What can you read by the look in the face?
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Thanks to all replies - and pardon being late but for some reason I do not get notifications of my posts or threads - set right here at the forums - but something in Chrome is not letting them through. I’ll figure it out eventually.