Native Instruments - This came out the blue

Similarly, am I not a musician if I use the Cubase chord assistant to give me ideas about reharmonization? Am I not a musician if I use Dorico’s “Enter notes from chord symbols” to help with a quick harmonization for a short passage of pads?

I really think we have to be careful about being too elitist. We all have many tools that make our lives easier. If I am building a house, I am going to use a power saw, not a hand saw.

I think the line of demarcation is when an AI program essentially steals major themes, motifs, solos, and distinctive riffs from a copyrighted work, such that a human doing the same thing would lose a copyright infringement case in court. AI is problematic because it can do these infringements thousands of times faster than humans can.

In the case of the Suno-generated piece I mentioned above, the bari sax voice was reminiscent of Tower of Power, but ToP was not the first to use a growling bari sax like that. The vocal sounded vaguely familiar, but no particular artist I could place – I had to set my arrangement down a 4th for my singer, who has a very good range. The chord progressions were actually a lot more advanced than about 95% of the pop stuff put out by human musicians. And in the end, I’m not presenting the Suno work. I wrote an arrangement for a completely different ensemble (a jazz big band instead of a 4-piece horn section). So I’m pretty sure I am still a musician.

There was an assertion upstream that NI/Izotope is bankrupt, in part, because they made a deal with the devil to incorporate AI in their products.

And on that point, I have been getting a bunch of ads for Izotope RX12, and many of the incremental features depend on AI. I am not offended by that. The features look useful. But still, even though in bankruptcy, they are asking prices that strike me as way out of line, even for a company that is not bankrupt.

I’m not buying that upgrade because there is a good chance the product is really not ready, and it being pitched in an attempt to establish a higher value in bankruptcy. I assume there will be little or no support available. Under those circumstances, I expect a serious discount.

FWIW, the “Music Rebalance” feature is not new in RX 12, it was there before the marketing world went ballistic with the magic letters “A” and “I”. Yes, we’re all concerned about the future of NI, and Kontakt in particular, but I came here about that, and not for philosophic discussions about what tools are or are not acceptable to make music.

I’ve also been bombarded with ads from other branches of this Charlie Foxtrot (Plugin Alliance, Brainworx, etc.) and I’ve even bought one that was on sale, so you weigh up your risks, and decide if you can afford to lose that investment.

IMHO, if you already use RX, it’s hardly worth upgrading (and hasn’t been, since about version 9), but if you have a use for it, try the trial version first, and then decide. It does however look like a fire sale, without the sale prices …

A similar situation with Sound Forge and Vegas Pro was recently resolved when Boris FX eventually bought them out of the insolvency of MAGIX. Someone will buy the bits of NI that we here are interested in, and then we get to decide what we want to do.

Let’s just hope it won’t be “subscribe or die”.

I’m sure many of the modules behave incrementally better. Music Rebalance was pretty near worthless before, but now it works much more like Spectralayers, which I have and use over RX most of the time. They are pricing the release upgrade at $200 for me. I don’t see $200 of value when I compare it to other products like Cubase, Dorico and others that are more like $100 for up upgrade that provide more value than the R12 upgrade. I might convince myself to buy it if I thought they were going to remain in business to support the product. I will wait and see. At $75, I’d probably do it.

… and only because the ML models have been better trained in the meantime. If sound separation is what you want, no static software is able to keep up with the pace of online development, so the best separations at any given point in time will be the online ones.

If you have SpectraLayers, I see no point in RX 12 unless you are invested in the workflow. I might upgrade for the price of a magazine, but I might never use it … and the plug-ins still aren’t supported in WaveLab, even though Spectral De-noise works perfectly and is one of my most-used of them.

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Your argument doesn’t acknowledge the keyword of my definition. “Love”.
Music isn’t a human need (as far as I can tell). We are the court jesters entertaining the royal court and the church congregation. We are not the King or the High Priest. We are indentured skilled servants. We don’t lead armies or cure cancer. We simply make a joyful noise, for the uplifting of the people.

Just as the chef can barely make ends meet but keeps cooking because he loves it; likewise, we make music because we love to do it, not because it’s an essential service.

Some say the definition is if you make a living from it. Fine but because it’s an art, my definition is if you love it. If you’re not good at it, so that you don’t make money, but you love doing it, you are still a musician. Just a poor one.

And since we do the thing that we love doing, repitition of the task makes us love it more and more. So the person who decides to get a bot to do it for him hasn’t been growing in their love for the craft and the journey. If they did then generative AI would have little use to them. Maybe help with tech support and the odd novel thing here and there. Other than that, music is as wild horses. You couldn’t drag me away.

No. He’s doing the work of a dj. Curating other peoples’ work is a curator, not a creator. Our modern tech has created a new profession: “music producer”. That term is to compromise on the void of playing a musical instrument but still ending up with new music. And since he’s a “kid” he’s nothing at all. He’s an apprentice. I wouldn’t give the title of “musician” to the youth, who are full of potential, but that’s about it.

When they sell their beloved skateboard to buy a keyboard. When it becomes their one and only primary hobby.

As a man thinks in his heart so is he.

So a man who thinks upon music all day long, about the feeling of it, tapping on his leg and doing drum sounds by chattering with his teeth, thinking about the roar of the crowd and that the stage is the top of the world. That is a musican.

While the guy who googles how to make money online and step 1 is to “choose a profitable niche” and he chooses music cause it has good numbers and goes ahead and makes AI music; is the opposite of a musician. He’s known as a parasite.

Nope, that’s a dj. Different profession.
Guys like DeadMau5 and Skrillex have respect because they make their own music.

Of course not. Art is objective. If you don’t think so, how come you have a favorite band? And you prefer one album over another? It’s because you’ve objectively decided that is superior to other music. We call that subjective, but only among different people (it’s only relative to the masses but not to individuals). We all know that there is objectively high quality art and low quality art.

Bach was a *master musician. You have conflated the term with the quality of skill. If someone is a cover band then, no they are clandestine musicians. They can make music yes, but if someone doesn’t create the art from within themselves they are not the thing (not music producers; music copycats). They are clouds without water.

There are only so many chords. But when it comes to pop music, what makes money is what is made. So that is the same problem. They are farming the market, so they are business people, not geniune artists. Do they love the art? If so, then why do they need so much help with inspiration?

Probably not, but these principles of what art is overlaps with all of them I think. We can look at a fine sculpture and appreciate it for the skill. We look at the turd on the wall and it doesn’t do anything for us, so it’s not art by definition. Because art is a carrier for a message. The sculptor is expressing the beauty and majesty of the human form. The turd on the wall carries no message.

The art is defined as art because the message it carries, when deployed, has one purpose: Makes the person receiving the message feel alive. If the art in question doesn’t do that, there is something wrong. Either the artist is inexperienced or the more likely reason is because they can’t make people feel alive because they are not alive themselves. They can only reproduce after their own kind.

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It isn’t what I would have come up with, but I like it. It fits a lot of kids I have worked with (in my case, violins or trumpets or flutes).

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OK, a few things to unpack. Lyrics is not music.

John Williams doesn’t play the oboes he writes either, I’m pretty sure he is a musician…

From a person who works day in day out with libraries, one has to be a musician to work with orchestral libraries. You need to know a great deal about orchestration and to be able to write music and most of the time perform it on your piano/keyboard. That, is being a musician.

PS, the above excludes one-finger-stabbers, a writing process that I am dead set against it!

I personally don’t use any of these things. However, if you want to use these, good for you, but these functions are not AI, it’s just part of Cubase’s function to work with MIDI and suggest preset chords.

Furthermore, Greg from Club Cubase said it many times when asked that Cubase is against using Suno type of functions.

I am referring to people writing stuff in a prompt window and receiving a piece by a conning AI company, that, is what I am referring to…

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Over the centuries, great composers have often handed off the orchestration tasks to interns. If you can hand some mostly routine tasks off to tools, is that any different, really? Ultimately, the composer is responsible for the final product.

Lot of talk about “musician”.
You’re a “driver” if you can drive a car (or lorry or bus or &tc).
You’re a “pilot” if you can fly an aeroplane.
“Biker” if you can ride a motorcycle.
So…
You’re a “musician” if you can play a musical instrument.
If you’re clicking notes into a DAW, you’re composing, so you’re a “composer”.
When I knock on the pearly gates and St Peter asks me what I am, I will answer, “Musician”.
If you can’t play a musical instrument, you’re not a musician.
That’s what I think, so there.


Doing this, am I a writer?
Or a typist?

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You’re an active forum member, which means you write posts. So you’re a poster.

Like a fore poster?


But back on topic. Magix was on the ropes and most people expected them to vanish. But then BorisFX stepped in and bought the whole shebang. Maybe something similar will happen with N.I.
Who knows, maybe Elon will buy it (them?).

Sorry man, your argument makes zero sense to me.

John Williams and the greats are now compared to a guy who types on Suno ‘Epic, Awesome, fast’?

I am not talking about Cubase and Dorico assisting, that’s not AI, these are just some functions at these programs.

Again, I repeat, again, I am referring to people creating music from thin air by writing prompts.

This, is what I am dead set against.

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I basically agree with you on that, although I am not opposed to getting ideas from anywhere, including AI. Music has always been about building on the ideas of others. That is 100% of what AI does. It doesn’t invent anything, but it can do a great job of surfacing examples.

But Suno is a small part of AI. And frankly, what Suno creates is about the same as everything else I hear on the radio. There really isn’t that much really creative music that makes it into the public’s eyes and ears. I just don’t think we should be opposed to using tools, regardless of what the programming technology is, as long as we are in control of the creative process.

It seems to me the jobs that are most immediately threatened are mastering engineer and graphics artist. (And none of the AI mastering products that I have seen are that great.)

You don’t know what goes under the hood, therefore you cannot say that is basically what AI does, 100%. It’s not an intelligent super thinking machine. It’s just a program created by conning companies who steal music from hard working musicians to scramble it together in order to fit prompts.

I am 100% opposed to it. Sorry. Theft is theft and I will never support a (whatever the hell you want to call it) that steals music, and puts musicians on a path to financial disaster.

I have friends who are production designers for Hollywood films, who lost their jobs because of crap like that. We are talking about food on the table stuff here and people not being able to support their families…

I can respect your lax attitude about this, but I am opposed to any use of this kind of technology for any purpose as a tool for my work. I for one am glad that Steinberg are showing no interest in integrating Suno based technology in Cubase.

Anyway, my two cents…

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This is the crux of the matter.
Back in good old days, the A&R men were old and didn’t have a clue as to what would sell, so they signed all sorts. Now, it’s young men, all chasing the same, current, “sound”. Rubbish music, rubbish lyrics, mostly women in their underwear in what passes for the charts.

(Don’t get me wrong, I like women in their underwear, but I can’t hear that.)

There is that. But the whole industry concept has changed. The “Top 40” isn’t really a thing anymore. There aren’t a lot of acts getting “record contracts” that pay them like rock stars. The really successful artists (Swift, Bad Bunny, etc.) have their own production companies, and they book directly with the venues, without regard to a record company.

And a lot of these performers are playing songs produced by Max Martin. No wonder so much of it sounds the same. It IS the same.

Do smaller acts even get recording contracts anymore?

I guess the point I’m getting around to is that 50 years ago, everything flowed from the record companies. Now, it is all fragmented. There is no centralized power structure. The power is divided among record companies, Ticketmaster, the venues (Ticketmaster/LiveNation controls more than 250 prime venues in North America – 85% of the concert sales), and a very few individual artists that are big enough to dictate terms to Ticketmaster.

And what most of the biggest grossing acts have in common is visual impact, not musical artistry. It is fireworks, skimpy clothes, and a lot of dancing. Not a lot of musical creation. That is what sells.

Not pushing back against your main points, but Taylor Swift (though not my fave) is a heck of a songwriter. Sings well also.

She is talented. And one of her talents is to not get more sophisticated than her audience. But I would suggest that her success is a combination of the music, lyrics, and atmosphere. Her “atmosphere” includes the showmanship and dancing. It also includes a carefully constructed public image and years of work into making her audience feel like insiders.

Springsteen doesn’t dance, but his atmosphere is strong also, in different ways.

The songs, by themselves, are good but not really adventurous or groundbreaking. It is the whole package that works for them. I’d say people like Beyonce, Dolly Parton, Springsteen, Taylor all have very keen instincts, both musically, and about what makes their fans tick.