Need a "sniffer" in an USB midi connection

Cubase
1

Hello, my problem doesn’t directly affect Cubase…

I’m “on the road” a lot with (church) organs

and
modern digital organs respond very well to MIDI signals

(with organ samplers like HW or GO etc. it’s inevitable :wink:

and there are now also some pipe organs that can be controlled completely by MIDI…

so right now there’s talk about (a few) Hyper organs, Würzburg, Amsterdam, Dortmund (the latter is unfortunately not “mine”)

and yet I’m once again dissatisfied with “what I have” (oh well…)

the physis organs (viscount, in germany : gloria concerto) for example don’t send MIDI signals when the couplers are operated (sounds strange? But it’s true)
and (unfortunately) that can’t be changed :scream:

(not even for money… sounds stranger? it’s truer :wink:

but the great thing about physis technology is that the individual registers /sounds /stops can be changed in many settings using an editor program (Volume and detuning are the harmless ones)

Now the physis editor (on the PC) is connected to the instrument via a USB cable and then probably has to send MIDI signals (if I’m wrong here, then the rest is in vain…)

At least for registers on/off and tremulants as well as coupling, the SysEx commands are clear…

(Keys/tones, volume, expression pedals etc. as well)

But I would like to know whether the individual parameters in the editor (called voicing as for a pipe organ) can also be transmitted via MIDI
This is the case with “my” large Digital organ in Marten /Dortmund - so i thought i maybe still like this…
because it also has viscount technology “under the hood” but the instrument is already over 25 years old and therefore not quite comparable with the concertos or the very latest models with physis plus technology…

So I need the possibility of using a sniffer program, for example, to “spy” on the connection between the laptop and the organ and see whether and which MIDI command changes which parameters conditionally

unfortunately I’m completely at a loss…

maybe someone here knows more

or has another idea how I could do it?

or am I “on the wrong track”

Many thanks in advance for your help

Best wishes, Oliver (J. Brahms Op 93a No. 1 :wink:

pS maybe I’m on the top…
(but only very few times on the roof :wink:

2

Hi,

You can use MIDI Monitor Insert in Cubase or any other MIDI Monitor application (MIDI Monitor for Mac or MIDI-OX for Windows, for example).

1 Like
3

no (i guess) i can’t

maybe “USB MIDI CONNECTION” was a very bad description…

the USB cable from the device (viscount Digital organ) to the laptop is not a midi connection like
the one at the komplete kontroll keyboard (which i have)
which can be monitored by simpel Programms (cubase, Bome midi, etc)

for usual midi data the viscount organ has the old 5 Point midi connection (in/out/thru) and nothing else…

compared with modern keyboards (Display, Funktionality etc) it’s like Hardware from the Stone age :wink:

i’m realy not New to cubase and
know more than a little about midi… (since more than 25 years :wink:

A friend told me to try wireShark an USB sniffer
I hope that will work…

4

Hi,

If the cable is an old MIDI 5-DIN connector, you can use any device with this kind of input (MOTU has these devices, Steinberg Audio Devices have this Input, some MIDI keyboards have this Input) which sends it via its USB to the computer. Then you can inspect the USB device for MIDI incoming messages again.

5

no - the connection from the organ to the laptop with the editor Program is an USB B (printer) cable…

the editor only works via this connection…

6

If you have the organ connected to your PC via USB and this connection does not show up on your computer as a MIDI port, then I’m afraid your question is beyond the scope of Cubase.
As I see it, you would have to reverse engineer the data transfer to and from the editor software and develop a custom application that translates MIDI into whatever data format the editor sends. Not an easy task.

7

If it’s a proprietary USB connection which is not USB MIDI, then you’re doing some hardware hacking, and no, this has nothing to do with Cubase.

If that’s the case, however, then yes, Wireshark is your solution :slight_smile:

1 Like
8

wireShark did the job - there are some very clear sysex commands in the data
but
When I send the exact same sysex command via midi to the organ…
nothing happenes
the very similar sysex command for OrganStop /Sound on/of is recognized and the organ reacts properly…
so i don’t know how to get what I want…

9

Hi,

Isn’t there any specification? It’s faster than doing the reverse-engineering.

10

Out of curiosity, are you quite sure the messages follow the MIDI specifications for SysEx? Care to post an example?

11

I tried it directly at viscount, there is a very nice and competent employee (Manager) who wrote to me yesterday:

(me)
Am I doing something wrong? have I overlooked something? or are the corresponding SysEx commands intentionally filtered out or ignored? or are they only “considered” when they come from the editor?

(answer)
Exactly, many commands are only implemented if they come from the Editor. Our intent is not to provide a door to work on the organ from the outside and I really don’t think we will ever do that. Honestly, it seems like a very obvious choice to me from the manufacturer’s perspective.
But if you are able to sniff the two-way traffic between editor and organ and have a lot of patience, you can build your own control app! Have a good work!

grrrr - everything is so easy with my 25 years old Benedikt organ in the church…
i have total (midi) controll over my jv 1080 Synthesizer…
why must it be so difficult with the brandnew one
don’t they trust their customers?

A little joke on the side - I bought (some time ago) two large used viscount organs and now a brand new cantorum duo plus, a current model at full price - the organs work perfectly,

but

the cantorum is defective…

the stops aren’t working, the device can only be operated via the laptop with the editor (ha ha ha…)

Of course I have a guarantee and I can send the defective device back…
(which I will do in the next few days)

12

@elias-orgel did you ever pursue this? I am in the exact same situation. I used MIDI Monitor to “see” what is sent between the Cantorum and the Editor but I can’t seem to find a way to send something “manually” without the editor. there seems to be a some message sent from the Editor - identified as “Invalid” by Midi Monitor" - that is periodic like the Clock and ActiveSense. My best guess at this point is that this could be some information the Organ needs to “accept” any input coming over the USB connection… but I haven’t cracked it yet… sigh

13

there is no chance…
i’m sorry - and it is even worse with the New physis plus Editor
the Manager was very clear in this point - no easy way to control the cantorum (or any other viscount organ) via midi…
:loudly_crying_face:
I have just posted the idea (in a forum) to create an organ with 4 manuals and 104 stops from four cantorum Uno plus… unfortunately there wasn’t much interest