No option to transpose Gm to Fm (?)

Dorico
#1

Hello, team.

I find it odd that there’s no way to transpose a piece from Gm to Fm. No way either with “quality” nor “number of divisions”.

“Transpose” window only offers me transposing (down) a “diatonic” (minor?) second, but not a whole tone.

Even more, when I tried to do the process twice to get to Fm, there was no way around it! Can’t get there from F#m either (leads me to E#m, wich I WON’T use).

Is there a bug? An assuption from programmers? What can I do?

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#2

You need to use the “Calculate Interval” function on the right side. Works just fine!

#3

Perhaps your checking "Number of divisions was the difference.

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#4

Actually, transposing from F#m to Fm is not transposing a minor second down (same note name), but a diminished unison (in Dorico’s jargon) :wink:

#5

It’s not Dorico-specific jargon: it’s just basic music theory.

#6

Ok, Daniel. Basic music theory in English, that I learned through Dorico :wink:

#7

Please allow me to suggest a small correction. Transposing f# to f is not a diminished unison down. It’s an augmented unison down, or a diminished unison up. The very Dorico-specific thing here, is that the ‘direction’ property is disabled when selecting a unison in the Transpose window, and that it’s implicitly always up (which means that diminished goes a half step down). I say this because I found it confusing when I saw this for the first time.

#8

On the augmented unison: a diminished unison doesn’t exist. It always seems intuitive that if one is moving pitches downwards, one thinks in terms of things getting smaller, even though they are moving farther apart. Given that a unison has 0 half-steps, a diminished unison would have to something smaller than, well, nothing! This is a kind of physics left to the experts…;>)

#9

Thanks to mth and R Pearl, with whom I do agree wholeheartedly :slight_smile:

#10

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Augmented_unison

I can’t tell why, but I also think of this interval as an augmented unison down. But I haven’t really thought a lot about this - like most people on this planet. As can be seen in the article above and in a lot of discussions in different forums, both theories exist and I don’t think, that Dorico should judge between them allowing only one possibility. Why not allowing the transpose dialog to input both ways? They don’t exclude each other.

#11

Guys:

SOLVED by turning off the “Transpose key signature” box, and later changing it manually. But I still don’t understand… why?

Please mind I have observed this issue only when trying to transpose a major second DOWN in the Transpose window and from Gm tonality. So, with the “Transpose key signature” box checked…

  • I’ve tried both “quality” and “number of divisions”. Here’s the thing:
  • in “Quality” option, as soon as I select DOWN and a second interval, the “quality” field only gives me “minor” (which I don’t need), or “diatonic” (?) (which gives a “n/a” in the “number of divisions” field (!))
  • in “Number of divisions” option, after selecting a second down, “number of divisions” only shows “-1/2”.
  • Trying to do this at “Calculate interval”, the Apply button turns gray and cannot choose it. I’ve tried this from G to F, from Bb to Ab (major relatives) and from C to Bb. Same results.

My guess is [one or several programmers at Steinberg’s] Dorico understands you can only go half step down DIATONICALLY while in Bb major (there’s no Ab). I get that. Isn’t the whole point of transposing to get OUT of the original tonality?

Could it be a little bit more flexible?

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#12

The first handful of times I tried to transpose something using the manual options on the left side, I messed it up every time. Since then, I’ve always transposed using ONLY the right side (the calculator) and have never experienced an error.

My suggestion is to ignore the left side controls and use only the calculator.

#13

Bernardo, is the whole selected passage in Gm or is there a switch to another key signature midway through?

#14

The only time I had to struggle with the transpose window was when I tried to transpose a lied that had several key signatures. As a matter of fact, when transposing a minor third down, the first key signature was easily transposed, but the second one would have been impossible and required an augmented second down transposition. Then I understood I could not perform the whole transposition in one step, then I transposed the first part a minor third down and the second part an augmented second down. I hope my little story here makes sense and eventually helps someone !

#15

Minus one is smaller than nothing. You’ll probably see it when I compare it to a doubly diminished second up, which is a half step down:


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#16

Ok, this is embarrassing… surely it has (from Gm to Abm). I’m guessing that’s what keeps Dorico from making the transposing automatically, isn’t it?

#17

That’s your problem. Dorico’s refusing to transpose Gm to Fm because it really doesn’t want to transpose Abm to Gbm. I can’t say I blame it! You’ll need to select the section that’s in Gm and transpose that down a Major 2nd, then select the section that’s in Abm and select down a Diminished 3rd (I’m guessing!).