Nonstandard Key Signatures in Dorico?

Hello,
How to create nonstandard key signatures in Dorico?

스크린샷 2024-09-10 오전 10.19.51

Thank You!

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Click the pen icon under Tonality System and you’ll see a spot there to define custom key signatures.

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The original post has a Gb and not an Ab (which may be a typo) - regardless, either is possible.

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Oh, sorry, working quickly over here and didn’t see your post. Hopefully it helps OP find the menu and go to town! :slight_smile:

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Awesome! Thank you very much!!

FTFY :wink:

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Maybe, depending on the music. If it sticks to a 7-note scale and no accidentals are needed, such key sigs are effective.

Effective at what? Minimizing accidentals? Conveying mode?

I was sort of both joking and not joking in my response :joy: I mean, if your first name is Béla or György, then cool, go ahead and use them, but most other people really shouldn’t. Studies have shown that most normal functioning adults can process seven bits of information at a time, some a little more, some a little less (plus or minus two). Through the process of “chunking,” any professional musician processes any major or minor key as one bit of information, as they are so familiar. Open key is also easy, as there is no key signature to remember, and a mode, if there is one, is communicated through written accidentals.

When you ask a professional to read a non-standard key sig, it doesn’t mean they will play a wrong note, as most will do just fine. It does mean that of the seven bits they can process simultaneously, the unfamiliar key sig is now taking up several of them instead of just one, so that leaves fewer bits to focus on blend, pitch, phrasing, etc. It almost always leads to an inferior performance IMO.

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I agree completely.

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And I don’t disagree. I’m thinking of players who specialize in music of other traditions.

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I have been writing some middle eastern type music lately. All modal. For that it’s really useful I find.

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It’s important to factor in openly a tacit assumption regarding time to gain familiarity.

Are we asking the non-standard of a performer with limited, if any, rehearsal time? If so, probably unwise to push too far.

Are we asking it of a soloist or ensemble that will live with the piece for quite awhile while folding it onto their repertory? If so, I wouldn’t want to underestimate what seasoned performers are capable of learning and becoming comfortable with.

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It looks to me like that isn’t supported. What piece is that from?

This type of key signature (with A-flat and A-natural at the same time in different octaves) would be very confusing for performers and I haven’t seen this before. Are you actually trying to engrave some real piece that was written like this?

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Yes… I need it (with A-flat and A-natural at the same time in different octaves)
for my contemporary music…
Thanks for your advice!

I agree with @mducharme that this would be confusing. In a key signature each accidental applies to all octaves, so asking for both A-flat and A-natural at the same is meaningless.

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Non-tonal music in common notation always marks accidentals on the notes – in some styles on every note, especially this type of false octave. Dorico can be quite helpful with this by automatically marking these.

I agree with the others: Nobody wants to have to remember two different A’s in one key signature, especially in “contemporary music”.

If this isn’t clear, @Shostakovich, despite the tone of some responses, I suspect (I hope!) that no one here is denigrating the idea of polytonal music, which by definition will be pan-diatonic rather than tonal. (In the case of true tonal music, independent key sigs would, of course, be not only meaningless but absurd.) After all, Stravinsky, Ives, Milhaud, Bartók, et al.…

But of those listed above I believe only Bartók “experimented” (famously/infamously) with disparate key sigs (EDIT: like the OP posed) in, for example, the two hands of some of his Mikrokosmos pieces. Stravinsky and Milhaud both chose a common key sig and used accidentals, I believe.

I’m actually of two minds about this myself:

On the one side, the point of music notation is to communicate the musical idea(s) to performers efficiently. So if a pianist’s two hands will consistently be in different scale-areas, then different key sigs could make good sense, pace Janus above. (And if there’s any doubt, a simple performance note would suffice to clarify.)

I personally, when reading through some Mikrokosmos pieces, have no trouble holding onto the idea of separate keys (though the atypical key sigs are another matter…), and appreciate the visual clarity of not having so many accidentals. One proviso: each hand’s material would probably have to stay in its discrete staff on the grand staff.

On the other, the point of music notation is to communicate the musical idea(s) to performers clearly. Here’s where some of the concerns raised above come into play.

I’m curious: what is/are the musical context(s) in which you want to use them: solo piano music? other?

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The O.P. deleted their post from 11 hours ago for some reason after my reply, but the key signature shown in their image was a bass clef, starting with three flats in the normal order and in the normal spot (Bb, Eb, Ab) and then an A natural on the top line of the bass clef staff right after the Ab in the bottom space. I have seen the different key signatures in different staves/hands in Bartok etc, but this was a different situation.

Agreed. I [EDIT: thought I] was responding to @Shostakovich’s Ab / A major example above.

EDIT: But…going back to re-read @Shostakovich’s Ab / A post above with eyes actually open :face_with_spiral_eyes:, I realize I wasn’t. (Apologies, Shostakovich, and thanks for helping me clean my glasses, @mducharme.)