Not one Cubase mention in Reddit EDM favourite Daw thread!

Please, NO!

If they want a different product line for that, fine, but don’t screw up Cubase.

I’m already nervous about losing the dongle. I’ll seriously miss being able sysprep and stash entire system drives, that all I need do to ‘restore’ them is plug it into a system with a dongle.

As it is, I have years worth of Cubase projects all backed up on complete sys-prepped drives. I just plug them in, add the dongle, and I’m usually ‘good to go’. Will all that still work with the ‘new on-disk/cloud’ system?

It’s a royal pain in the butt to go into a studio (that has a lot of really expensive gear and rooms I might need for a project already jacked into a giant console), and have to go through 18 people to get internet access long enough to get ‘my setup’ onto ‘their hardware’. It’s even worse if you bring your own PC in a rack, and need the 12 union guys to hook it into their consoles and stuff.

Doing a PO for an institution or company that has the words ‘internet’ and ‘subscription’ in it…a bureaucratic NIGHTMARE. So many stake holders have to approve the mess, special bank accounts have to be set up. Fire walls have to be opened. We’re easily talking a 50+ page implementation plan!

All so ‘pirates’ won’t complain? If they love free software so much, they can run linux distros, and CONTRIBUTE to the code base.

With the dongles, I could get away with using the pencil and paper budget and treating it as a ‘perishable purchase’. Buy a ‘dongle’ that happens to have useful keys on it. Sysprep the entire thing with key drivers in place pretty easily so a more or less portable install (OS and All) is universally ready to go where I’ll be headed (perhaps even over a mobile hotspot long enough to get the stuff registered), and be off to the races. Very little ‘internet/cloud’ crap required.

Don’t get me started on how much easier it is to write grants and stuff that don’t require steady ‘debt/credit accounts’ and all than it is to outright buy something, register it once, and be done with it.

I guess those days are numbered…and people actually believe that having to go through a massive web structure, and multiple servers, all sorts of personal/company information kept on a ‘cloud’ somewhere, is ‘easier, more reliable, and less arcane’ than plugging in a simple USB stick.

Oh well…

The dongle stays - new and existing systems will live together, so I have read. It will be for the user to choose.

Steinberg have stated many times over, there will be no subscription type licensing implemented.

I believe, the big benefit for some folk under the new system, will be the ability to install/run Steinberg apps simultaneously on more than one computer, without needing a dongle to be present. At the same time, if you prefer, nothing will change to the workflow you’re used to (using the dongle).

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That’s good news…and hopefully without having to apply for ‘special keys’ like we need to roll back to HALion 5.

Will be no problem for you - I can imagine the special key will continue to work as it does now; just move the dongle to whichever machine you wish to work on… Isn’t HAL 5 the only instrument they’ve ever done this for…?

(anyway - apologies to OP - seriously off-topic now…!! will stop here)


Of course I prefer to use the latest and greatest for current projects. The old ones…well, I just plug in the old drive and dig in. Thus why I needed the special H5 key, and for both H5 and 6 keys to be on the Dongle. The good news is I asked for it on the Friday of a ‘holiday weekend’, and got it by Tuesday the next week. Lucky :slight_smile:

Ain’t that the truth…

It’s why I’d like to see the macro and logic editors really open up and access more.

This way, the end user can ‘build’ a work flow when they require things that are more ‘personal and customized’.

If they just gave us a few tools to have those logic editors be a bit more advanced, and see into more tables/fields, gave us a few variables to store info, and a way to ‘generate arbitrary events’ with them…well, WE could tailor a lot more ‘missing features’ ourselves.

Even better if we could pop open our favorite text editor and just make a script that can be dumped into these logic editors.

Even better if at some point, we could get something like a well documented LUA/Python/whatever back-end to create our own one click ‘buttons’ and perhaps even ‘editors with a little UI action going on’.

But like ya said…we just find ways to ‘get it done’. There are so many master-pieces out there that were done with nothing but a mic and two track recorder…so ultimately, the tech we have today is part of the ‘character’ of our work.

Get it done, turn it in, and move on to the next thing…

As far as I know it is, but that’s because they made it work with the soft eLicenser at version 6. Version 5 cannot do that…and ONLY works from a dongle. Something about the way they look for keys is different…so the extra key is required to roll back.

At some point Groove Agent might do something similar, if it hasn’t already? Is that one (ver 5.x now) still dongleware only? I better go check soon if I need a roll back key for that one too. I assume it’s pretty much just some variant of HALion with a different skin/UI.

Well, most professional companies already are in the habit of paying a monthly for licenses on a per user/per station level, most email & office apps are that way now - look at office 365.

Most sysadmins prefers a centrally administrable approach so that they can control/oversee and detect security issues. A hardware server isn’t a server anymore, it’s more a home for virtual servers to exist - which means you can carry out equivalent hardware functions via software/cloud control.

I don’t know how many organisations use Cubase across a mass of connected users, but you’d think it’s quite rare and is more commonly used on 1 or 2 machines in creative areas where the dongle is just enabled for those fixed machines.

One things for sure though, The modern world requires system admins to have security locked down and risk of ransomware attacks minimised or their heads on the line.

This has certainly become key for us in the past year - external security audits and disabling of USB ports being the default state for each machine.

The benefits are there though, you can enable licensing to a new employee within minutes via the cloud and use policies to deploy software install scripts across VPN. And they can be sat anywhere in the world.

But this conversation is different, it’s about attracting a fresher/younger EDM crowd to embrace Cubase and to populate Steinberg’s income to grow the software. And the only way that happens if Steinberg can get the higher tier features into their hands at a price point that matches.

As much as it upsets pros, the hobbyist market bringing a secondary income is what generates Steinberg a large revenue, and that market is increasingly growing in EDM areas. Or rather, it has grown already - i think EDM is now second to hip hop/pop as the biggest selling genre? Rock has taken a step down.

Audio pitching, time stretching and quantisation is just standard issue in the DAW world at this point and that’s basic sample manipulation - most EDM users pick up a unique sample as the basis of their beats and manipulate as step one.

I can’t see that Steinberg have any room in their pricing model to open up features like Variaudio to lower tier versions to get people on the ladder, nor will they allow their products to be openly cracked. So this is why subscription model seems the most logical route to get EDM (And a ton more) users onboard, to me.

The ones I know just want to pirate everything anyway so is almost a waste of resources appealing to them, but having your software discussed on social media platforms and featured in youtube tutorials is a huge sales tool in itself. Right now, you need to have a very active interest to order a USB dongle to try a 30 day demo of a product… hence why it’s rarely mentioned in EDM circles.

Most ‘big corporate’ entities might be like this.

I’m not going to ‘infect’ a studio’s computer if I take their drive sleds out and put mine in.

Hakers aren’t out there trying to steal readily available firmware off of 12 year old mixing consoles (if it’s even possible to do this) and spit them out to some server off in China, via PC that’s not even connected to the internet. At least not that I’m aware of. My drive isn’t likely to do damage…it’s not going online, and as much of the ‘networking garbage’ and OS services/protocols for that stuff as possible are flat out disabled.

Network hardware is often the number 1 cause of latency issues with daw software. Even when it’s not being ‘used’, bad cards/drivers cause wait states and other problems that can effect a good running DAW workstation!

When they do have network cards, they’re carefully selected, and optimized for ‘audio purposes’.

I don’t know of many studios that put their control room systems online with their business tools. Not only might that unnecessary marriage compromise the integrity of both systems…the ‘optimal performance’ setting for each network is quite DIFFERENT. The audio/video equipment needs different packet sizes, optimized for low latency over short distances, etc.

Don’t get me started on things like small teaching studios, churches, band halls (parent funded), and people who apply for small grants to do one off projects.

Churches buy a LOT of pro audio equipment, DAWs, etc. They aren’t really crazy about having ‘contracts’ to maintain accounts online that get pinged regularly for payments either. The reasons for this are numerous. They prefer to pay up one time, write a PO for the stuff, and use it for as long as they can. Running the cables and stuff put it online and keep it there, and the expenses and all involved can often be a ‘deal killer’ in getting that church a software based option at all. If it cost 6k to run the cables and install routers and stuff…and the DAW is only $600…well, do the math. They’ll just rule out the PC driven solution, and buy a dedicated stand alone mixer/recorder for $1,200 instead…

As for things like office 365, Adobe Cloud, etc…

Truth is, just about every small business I come in contact with is trying to make really old stuff from XP days continue to work. They can’t afford to send those companies $400+ a month to maintain regular subscription seats. When they are eventually forced to do it, something has to go…some service they used to provide…or even a full time employee. What they can do, is try to plan for infrastructure investments, and change stuff out X years from now. Or borrow a chunk of money to do a big upgrade ‘today’ and hopefully be done with it for another decade or so.

From personal experience, and yes in these modern times…the long term ‘commitment’ to keep paying a fee for some kind of ‘subscription’ that requires a constantly maintained account (from companies that don’t take stuff like state issued purchase orders AT ALL), way into the distant future…well, you find deployment alternatives, or you do without.

It’s easy to say a back-woods county with a budget of 500k per year for dealing with the many levels of red tape in the world should ‘get with the times and deal with it/pay for it’. Seeing it ‘actually happen’ is a whole different story.

More than once, I walked into programs that if I wanted a DAW of any kind for said program…I either used ‘my personal stuff’, or found an option with offline deployment. The ‘band/choir’ building wasn’t even considered important enough to get an internet connection. Even if the ‘money’ were in the ‘budget’ to get the stuff, it might not be approved for implementation for ‘years’ (by then it’s a different version/price/etc.). Then there’s the problem with…you can’t plug a State PO into your AVID/Sibelius account…and they sure as heck won’t wait for their money to actually ARRIVE before they enable your software.

Sometimes, I’d get lucky, and find a third party that deals with things like state/county/municipal government purchase orders as a middle man, and finds a way to ‘deploy’ things…but issues quickly arise. In most cases, the dongle ware was the easiest and most efficient route. Of course there were ‘problems’ too…like inventorying the physical dongles, finding a way to ‘secure them’ from theft, etc.

This music stuff can be quite the niche market. It’s not really like essential services that people ‘have to have’ in every community to survive. What works for a big franchise chain of retail businesses, or a huge corporation, etc…is NOT always so great for the average small business. Especially something as niche as pro audio.

At least until COVID hit…small businesses were still the ‘lions share’ of employers and deal makers around the world. I guess we’ll see in a few years…but for now, I just don’t see how all these accounts, and the always being hacked ‘cloud’ stuff is ‘safer, more efficient, more reliable, and more secure’ than plugging in a dongle.

I’m not upset at all if they choose to fork off a product line for this market and treat it differently. Be my guest!

I’m not upset at all if I can still easily aquire and deploy the stuff I need, still run my old backup projects, not have to go online on a regular basis to keep it running (old and new), etc.

I understand that companies have to ‘chase the future’, ‘embrace emerging markets and trends’ and take risks there. No problem with that. I just don’t want to lose the freedom and control that I now enjoy in the process.

I’d also hate to see a good DAW company go under because they have to pay third parties to ‘deal with their registration mess, and the countless sysops involved there that might well make as much or more than their ‘top DAW programmers’’ than they spend on in house DEVELOPERS.

Millions of dollars invested in a cloud registration/protection scheme (that even Stienberg themselves can’t fully control), vs millions invested in a team to make new audio software. I’d rather keep it off line, get kick butt DAW advancements, and deal with the minor inconvenience of some kind of hardware protection device.

Sure you can, you can take every attached storage down that the machine has visibility to. I’ve seen it happen, and it’s devastating, my friend had to close his studio after a band brought some stems for him to work on.

Week later everything had been encrypted with a ransomware message, went through all his local mirrored NAS drives too - which held all the archives.

His insurance company covered him financially and they tried to engage with the attackers to levy a deal (Apparently people are in place for these kind of deals), but they weren’t willing to pay the ransom. Friend decided enough was enough and the embarrassment of losing clients work has really hit him hard.

Worst part is that when he contacted the band they said they had the same thing happen to them, which is when he realised that it was most likely from their drive. Yet they were saying it was him that infected them. Such a crappy situation really, you sometimes have to experience these things firsthand to understand the sheer magnitude and damage that can be done so flippantly.

I don’t think Steinberg are all that concerned with supporting users wanting to stay on XP technology. They can just exist as legacy users. We’re talking new user bases and embracing technologies that make people’s lives easier and fit into modern IT infrastructures whereby virtual machines are a mainstay.

For a home/hobbyist user this brings the benefit of being able to move between a desktop and laptop without the risk of carrying a dongle with you everywhere you go. That’s a real concern for people currently on other DAW’s. Not to mention the ability to demo software without the need to buy a hardware dongle.

If anyone is sending or receiving files to a musician, studio or mastering engineer and they’re not doing their due diligence in ensuring systems are up to date because the machine is ‘offline’ - honestly, that’s a very selfish attitude towards everyone else in the production loop. There’s a reason Mac professionals still run AV software which detects PC exploits, it’s to protect their customers.

This is really a completely different topic that the title suggests, so gonna shut up on it now. :slight_smile:

If his OS isn’t even in the sled, how does my drive corrupt his OS? How does my system get access to his NAS subset? I don’t have any passwords or keys installed for any of that stuff, and I would not dare ask for them without first submitting my drive to their top security people. I’d also be bringing my own storage drives in most cases as well…or cutting them a check to supply fresh ones of the proper type/size (I’m taking them with me when I leave).

The key here is, a device was plugged in and accessed by the engineer’s own OS, and worked on in his own DAW. The device must have had some kind of boot sectors, and the engineer used his own OS to get stuff from it, and use it in his own setup. Probably stuff that should be disabled for an optimal DAW allowed it to run in the first place.

Or, it was emailed, sent via drop-box, whatever…again, back to the cloud, and the whole thing being ‘exposed’ to the entire world.

I’m missing something here.

I see the point about ransom ware if it’s attacking stuff like mixing consoles, audio interfaces, and empty drive array slots. Then again, that would be a very sophisticated outfit, with pretty specialized targets, and they probably have much better ways to get in than from a random guy’s hard drive that’s only been online long enough to find and sys-prep certified drivers. They’d have to ‘hard camp’ a studio to even know what to attack and how!

And where is their last system backup? Don’t they do it regularly, or does the ‘cloud’ stuff prevent that now too?

I’m writing EDM around 9 years in Cubase.
Cubase is 80% good for EDM needs.
Juts need couple of tweaks:

  1. [Key Editor] Objective Selection tool improvements - #3 by Moortrum
  2. [Key Editor] Drag'n'Drop Chords from Global Tracks - #2 by Danix78
  3. [Key Editor] Preview tool improvement - #2 by Moortrum

Because many of EDM producers doesn’t have midi keyboard, they just using mouse and laptop

Yeah, where I said this is off-topic and not going to discuss it further?. :slight_smile:

Honestly, the scenarios you are constructing are just so niche that there’s not even the slightest of relevance to this topic, or anyone would rarely relate to for it to be of interest.

To pull this back, We’re discussing EDM users being catered for and the roads available to Cubase.

Unless I’ve read the userbase wrong, I expect there’s far more who are looking to upload direct to DJ’s, radio stations, soundcloud, spotify or youtube versus those wanting to run XP era systems and slide their drives into a studio environment to run their own OS.

My point being that subscriptions may be the answer to the EDM crowd who predominately like to get software ‘on the cheap’, which (as displayed) would be met with contempt by some users. Right now, just the cost of the dongle to try software for 30 days is a really poor obstacle.

For you it works well, I get it. Doesn’t mean that an offline machine is better because it can use a dongle though, just brings a set of different problems in security issues, communication of files and becoming out-dated to cater to the clientele. And as I said, you’d just be considered a legacy user and left to do as you please.

Outside of that, there’s people picking up laptops with only 1-2 USB ports. Steinberg have to move to reflect the state of hardware and DAW consumption I’m afraid.

Being a machinist by trade, all I can think of any time someone mentions EDM …

Electrical discharge machining - Wikipedia


Sent an IM.

One can fix the dongle problem for demos without forcing a ‘subscription model’.

Dongles can be incorporated into nice audio interfaces with great selling points.

Newer product lines can fork off and go after specific markets.

People picking a
$400 ‘laptop’ for a $600 DAW, that specializes in handling MASSIVE audio interfaces (a huge part of what Cubase users look and pay for)…hmm…wrong product.

Like ya said…those are entry level issues…different product, and price point.

There are all sorts of options.

No, I can’t just stay a ‘legacy user’. I have to ‘bridge worlds’ daily. OS and hardware changes prevent that. I sent a PM…sorry for dragging this part of the discussion out here and kind of hijacking the thread. Why would Steinberg want to ‘write me off’? I spend a pretty good chunk of money with them annually, and have been doing so since 1988 or so. I’ve been loyal to them in doing so…they’ve been kind of loyal to us as well (really good continued legacy support, and some other things), but sometimes it doesn’t feel that way at the development end. Explained in the PM.

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No need to be pedantic you know the point I’m trying to make

‘Up until now.’ You sound like the CEOs of blackberry and Nokia when the iPhone was first released.

As a moderator this seems like a strange response in terms of maintaining impartiality. You’d do well to consider this in future responses.

I’m pretty sure the real world results are plain to see as reflected by very slow and minor updates from Steinberg in terms of stability and fixes. That tells you all you need to know about the state of Steinberg’s resources. This forum is literally non stop with people disappointed with requests that have been repeatedly asked for for years and are not forthcoming.

If they had a sizeable chunk of the market and the resources, fixes and stability would not be as much of an issue as it seems to be judging by all the posts here.

All the old timers here don’t seem to realise without fresh new users your daw will not survive. There will not be the financial flow for the upkeep of the daw. And cubase is behind the curve in the burgeoning dance market. The very thing you are all so determined to not be a part of is going to be the very thing that stops the daw from being regularly and well maintained. Your cutting off your noses despite your face.

Keep your head buried in the sand for as long as you want but businesses need to survive and to do that they need to cater to a wide audience.