Hi All - I am running into a strange issue with panning when I try to create an “Object Bed” (See the online info on how Nick Rives at Capitol Studios does this).
If anyone else wants to test this:
Setup the Nuendo Atmos Renderer as indicated in the docs.
Add a 7.1.4 Bus to use as the Object Bed
Select that channel in the mixer and go to ADM Authoring under Project Menu
Goto Functions and → Create Objects from Selected Tracks
The output of the channel should be the ATMOS MIX where the Renderer is inserted
This should add objects to the Renderer and will skip the LFE as it should
Now for the strangeness:
Add an instrument or audio source (mono is easiest)
Set the output of this track to the previously created Object Bed track
You should now be able to move the object as expected with the VST Multipanner on the audio source
Open up the Renderer window and follow what is going on
Pan the source to the bottom center
You will see that it will be CENTERED vertically within the Renderer even though it is on the floor in the multi-panner
I believe there is a transform error going on with the nested multipanners, or something like that…
This error can be verified by having the audio source on the floor - exporting the ADM file and opening that with the Atmos Production Suite. You will see that the floor is 3/4 of the way up - rather than centered as expected.
I can add picts or a video if this doesn’t make sense.
Before everybody screams “just use audio sources straight to objects as designed” - think of what happens when using a 7.1.4 Reverb or Upmix… - it will be going to the wrong 3D space.
@Dr.Strangelove -
That’s why I put it in quotes and it’s called an “Object Bed”. Here is the SXSW Dolby Atmos Music Masterclass where Ceri Thomas of Dolby talks with Nick Rives, an engineer at Capitol. It’s long, but worth every minute. He discusses why they came up with the idea of an “Object Bed” and how they use it - there are very good reasons for using them, especially for music.
I typically only use the default 10 channel (7.1.2 Bed) for the LFE.
Google the following: SXSW Dolby Atmos Music Masterclass
I might be missing something, but it seems to me that your 7.1.4 object bed has been turned into an object itself and is “locked” based on how it is panned. If that’s the case then it makes sense that anything going into that 7.1.4 track is limited to how the wider track is panned. I’ll check again, but from what I recall when I tried this I didn’t actually make the 7.1.4 into an object itself, only the items that go into it.
So in other words the 7.1.4 would be a sort of intermediary path to access 3D space and shouldn’t be “restricted” into being an object itself. It is anything that feeds it that is an object. I hope that makes sense.
Yes please.
So we had this discussion in a couple of places already and again pulling from memory the “problem” was basically that a 7.1.2 bed wouldn’t allow us front/rear in the ceiling. If you’re ok with only two top channels then you could use 7.1.2 for a reverb (as long as the plugin supports it) and you should be fine.
I would think that in order to get around that you’d need the 7.1.4 object bed without making it an object and then pan sources into it. But you could I would imagine create an group-track-objects or two that are for example quad and anchor them accordingly, and then you send to those and place your reverb on them, again if the plugin permits.
I’ll open Nuendo up later today and check, but I think that’s what the reasoning was behind it all…
@MattiasNYC
Exactly! I’m working on a workaround as well using child busses and direct routing.
If it was only reverb, I could deal with the 7.1.2 limitation I suppose, but when you add Penteo Pro for upmixing into the equation it’s frustrating.
Actually, this issue came about because I’m doing height channel simulation in the live room for re-amping… don’t ask lol. I discovered the issue when I was testing and stepping through the channels soloing them in Penteo.
It was simple to do this using an external Renderer - I just setup a 7.1.4 bus that fed 12 discreet channels connected to the renderer and panned them accordingly. For obvious reasons, I’m trying to simplify the workflow and have the renderer export from Nuendo as intended.
I appreciate the help! and I’ll get back as well if I find a workaround.
Thanks!
Hey Dirk -
Certainly! I created a simple test project and even removed the 7.1.4 part of the equation and used a 7.0.2 object bed - which I would expect to pan exactly like the 10 channel default bed.
Should be self explanatory: ObjectBedTest.npr.zip (31.4 KB)
Here is a quick SS that shows where the issue is:
some weeks ago, I was dealing with a problem in a similar problem space.
From reading your initial post and looking at the screen shot , I tend to agree to your conclusion (can’t check your project file right now).
It looks, as if the signal panned to the bottom-mid-right is bleeding into the top-front-right and top-back-right. As if the signal is vertically panned into the middle.
… just my two cents.
Edit: Did you check, whether the VST-Panner on the mono track is in “Bed Mode” or “Object Mode”? Not sure whether it matters. But if I remember correctly, this has some influence. Not sure anymore, whether this was kind of “works as expected” or not.
Hey Everyone -
Here is a workaround (a very ugly one, but it functions as expected): ObjectBedWorkaround.npr.zip (45.7 KB)
What I did was to create a passthru 7.1.4 channel where I don’t have an output, but use 2 sends - one for the height channels, and one for the floor. I solo’d the appropriate channels in the panning attached to the sends - and those sends go to a Floor Object bus, and a quad Height bus, which are output to the Atmos Channel (and thus the sidechains as well).
It is a pain - but better than the strangeness that happens trying it the normal way.
Let me know if there is a simple way to do this lol!
Tad
I did try this both ways on the source audio track. The Bed Mode works and sends audio - the Object Mode sends no audio to the output (I’m guessing in object mode audio only goes to the sidechain).
If it was only reverb, I could deal with the 7.1.2 limitation I suppose
What I find limiting/annoying with the .2 bed is that if you add any front or rear specific signal to the top, then you get (potentially) unwanted signal on the opposite room end in a 7.1.4 set-up. ie. Channels panned hard front will suddenly appear in the top rear of the room.
EDIT: The setup below seems unnecessary now… see next post…
So I think there might be a different solution to this. I’m a bit tired but… I tried all of this out and I see what you were pointing out as a problem, and I think I agree that some of this is a bit weird. It’s basically as if we’re unable to send post fader/panner because the Dolby stuff takes over the channel output and sends as soon as we change an audio track to an ‘object’. I totally see the problem when wanting to send into for example a reverb but maintain the source location going into that reverb.
Anyway, the only solution I’ve found so far seems possibly more “clean”. Like I said, I’m a bit tired now so I’ll just type it out real quick and then you can let me know if something seems weird and I’ll take a look at it.
master output with the Renderer
7.1.4 Group track to that master output
7.1.2 Group track to that master output (as bed)
Then
one audio track with a signal generator on it. This goes to two group tracks called “linked 1” and “linked 2”.
“linked 1” output to 7.1.4 Group
“linked 2” output to “FX 714”
one 7.1.4 group channel called “FX 714” with Stratus 3D reverb on it. The output of this was set to the 7.1.4 Group Track and when selected I made that into an object in the ADM.
Then
“linked 1” and “linked 2” are… well… linked: Panner only
“linked 1” becomes an object in ADM
Result:
Panning either of the “linked” groups will pan your desired source object into both your group track with your effect channel on it and the “dry” object itself. As you can see I’ve panned the object back/top/left, and that input is clean into the Stratus 3D plugin. It’s hard to see what the effect is of cascading, but when I bypass Stratus and mute “linked 1” I see signal only in TopRearLeft, so panning appears to be fine including vertical.
Obviously there are several things to consider here including wet/dry and how many tracks you end up with, but at least there’s only one ‘item’ that contains the multichannel 3D plugin as opposed to having to route to multiple targets to get that separation.
I find myself only using one 7.1.2 bed, if a rhythm section based track, then drums and bass primarily. The rest of the tracks I create as objects. If I need the LFE, I’ll create a copy of the object track and low pass up to around the LFE freq range and send to the bed so I can then control LFE of it. For FX, I’m using two 7.1.4 verbs and commit them to full 7.1.4 groups or FX channels that I send to, plus one stereo verb. This has helped me avoid any panning limitations. So just waiting for the project that I run out of object tracks because of this! I’m a composer primarily and can revert to stems pretty easily when needed.
Hey Paul - RE: “commit them to full 7.1.4 groups” have you checked to see that these reverb channels using 7.1.4 groups are actually getting vertically panned correctly? I could not get that to work.
Also - everyone - there is a strange behavior that will make my workaround not work unless you set the mute states in the object bed sends correctly. When I pulled up my example file again, these all defaulted back to a normal state. The muting states should be set according to the “bottom” or “top” intermediate channels you are sending to. If this doesn’t make sense, I can elaborate.
I know it is a pain to set these every time - but I get exactly what I expect this way, and what I hear monitoring in Nuendo ends up the same as the Atmos file opened and played back in the renderer.
I think I’m back to not understanding what you need. I had a workaround that worked but then realized that my problem was just that I hadn’t linked panners in the source track. When the send/main panners are linked it works just fine. Just set the output of the track to a 7.1.4 output bus and make the source track into an object. Panning is then as expected, vertical and horizontal.
I used a 7.1.4 output bus not patched to any physical outputs. My source mono audio track was set to output to that bus. Then the source audio track was made into an object, which you point out above isn’t what you want. But if you want to use a reverb then create a group that’s the width you need and the reverb instantiated on it, and use a send from your source to that group. as long as your send and post-fade panners are set to link with each other the input to the reverb group should follow your panning, and it’ll be in the “right 3D space”.
