Thanks for your comments. I am enjoying Dorico. It is very rich in functionality and I have much to learn. I just need to work out which direction I am going to take on the sound side. Either go the NotePerformer route or invest more time and energy to understand better the constraints of the various libraries including which ones can be used with minimum intervention for various score types (eg. BBCSO Pro for full orchestra, perhaps several VSL products to cater for other score types). I have found a Wagner Dorico score with 45 individual or section players and have linked the Dorico score to BBCSO Pro via VePro (as going direct to BBCSO Pro was a nightmare) which demanded enormous amount of time and energy. I felt like giving up every couple of hours. If BBCSO Pro in a full orchestra context delivers poor sound without major fiddling of parameters, I will likely give up. Thanks for your encouragement anyway.
I tested the first few bars of the little piece above and to confirm when you enter the notes you hear without any articulation (so it uses long for all notes) and no dynamic marks, with playback at default tempo 72 the BBCSO Violin 1 leader sounds more or less exactly like the posted sample. Except for the little hiccup I hear after the first note. I donât have that.
This with default BBCSO settings with mix 1 with reverb in the app at zero and CC1 and CC11 at 50-60% and vibrato is default at 100% (at least when I load it fresh). So you get a lot of the room even without reverb in mix 1.
So assuming you did not actually enter any articulations (e.g. legato changes the sound a lot) your setup is correct and this is what you get with this library. I did notice that if you just add a little reverb in the Spitfire app, and put the CC1 and CC11 a bit lower the whole sonority smooths out and is not so bad. You might also experiment with the violin 2 leader.
Spitfire did not give a lot info how these samples were recorded. It could be just with a separate close microphone while all others were also playing the same notes or sitting in the violin 1 leader position while all others were silent. It does definitely reflect the orchestral postion not a solo instrument in front of the orchestra,
thanks mavros. It does appear that the BBCSO Pro Violin 1 Leader patch is not to be used for a solo part, where it is exposed with no supporting section.
I would agree with the others that NotePerformer is probably the way to go for you if you want completely automatic playback without fiddling around.
What ChatGPT is telling you is partially nonsense and partially true. It seems to be trying to aggregate opinions of many people and its answer is I think not that helpful overall, even though some parts are true.
I donât have any BBCSO, but from what Iâve heard from others, BBCSO Pro was probably one of the worst things you could have purchased when it comes to Dorico - it can have a great sound but it has a lot of inconsistencies and issues to be worked around, moreso than most libraries out there. Again it is a case Iâve seen many times now, people buy based on the demos but they donât know what they are getting.
In comparison, VSL is generally the best choice for Dorico because they actually make their own maps for Dorico and target notation customers, and they are one of the few vendors that takes consistency and agility and balance seriously. What this means is that when you hit play, you will usually hear something fairly close to what you want to hear in terms of balance etc and hearing all the lines, but it may just sound a bit lifeless/flat because Dorico itself doesnât do much shaping on its own aside from following the dynamics youâve written. So writing CCâs yourself for important lines is a must, to inject some life into them otherwise it sounds like an orchestra is playing with a great sound but doesnât really like the piece or isnât treating it in a very musical way.
So you should have realistic expectations about the amount of work it will be. NotePerformer does everything for you and balances really well and has life in it automatically (some magic rules made from following the notation). It is the âpress play and you get what you getâ solution.
When you move to sample libraries, things are more variable - a few like VSL will be agile, balanced and consistent, and so you will get a good sense of how the piece sounds by hitting play, but it will sound lifeless until you inject some of your own shaping. Most libraries are not agile, balanced, and consistent, so when you hit play, everything will be wrong and off and terrible all over the place, and youâd have to make manual adjustments everywhere to fix everything, and then inject your own shaping afterwards like you would with VSL.
But if youâre really not sure you want to spend any time at all even manually drawing in CC lanes, then no libraries will work for you, and you shouldnât spend your money on them. Youâll have to live with NotePerformer, which sounds synthetic but is very strong in almost all other areas.
In my case I do works for media (short films etc) where the sampled playback is the final product and so NotePerformer is not adequate. For concert music it is different and conductors only need to get an idea of how the piece sounds and donât need computer playback to be perfect for that (NotePerformer is quite satisfactory in that area).
I just heard some of the music of Samplemodelingâs products and it is indeed impressive. They seem to have their propriety technology (like NotePerformer) to produce lovely sounds. Unfortunately, they donât seem to have products for all sections (winds for example). Also, nice sound from Acousticsample, they also donât have the full range of instruments. Can you tell me what your experience is in using these companiesâ products in Dorico; are you happy with the realism of the results and are they truly âplug and playâ?
I am hearing that I could have less problems with VSL products instead of BBCSO Pro inside Dorico. Iâm not sure what less means and whether it just means it would be a battle instead of a war, it which case it may not be worth pursuing. Would you have an opinion about this?
My own experience is that modeled instruments typically work quite well in Dorico because they generally have the agility, consistency and balance needed. However, the downside of modeled instruments is that they will start to sound painfully fake or sometimes bad if you arenât constantly modulating the CCâs, which Dorico will not do on its own. You need to do more extensive manual CC shaping with these types of libraries than you would with traditional samples (and that goes for when you are working in a DAW as well). With sample modeling strings there are two CCâs that essentially constantly need to be fluctuating otherwise it immediately sounds terrible.
If Dorico is enhanced in the future to do more auto-shaping in a musical way based on the phrasing, then modeled instruments could work much better.
Yes I believe that I should have chosen VSL instead of BBCSO Pro, this is what I am hearing. If I had VSL, do you believe I could get get away with only doing drawing the occasional CC curve and not having to review each bar of the score to obtain a decent result. When we talk about CC curves it appears to be just a question of the delivery not sound quality problems like I have currently with BBCSO Pro Violin 1 Leader. I am even wondering whether VSL will solve all my problems as I have others such as the popping sound that I hear during a tutti when I play a very big Wagner score in BBCSO Pro. There again I have spent hours looking for solutions. I have 64 GB memory, Intel I7 CPU and 4 TB SSD drive which should be OK. Often I say to myself I should have just stayed on MusescoreâŚ. but then I say that at least Dorico is a truly professional piece of software which may in itself have justified the move away from Musescore.
Sorry mducharme, I meant to say : âWhen we talk about CC curves, my understanding is that they resolve delivery problems not sound quality problems like I have currently with BBCSO Pro Violin 1 Leaderâ.
Wow, there are so many parameters involved to get a good sound. I am realising now how silly I was just thinking I could just click on a library and get a wonderful sound out of the box. I am feeling very discouraged at this moment I must say. I was dreaming of obtaining a wonderful sound with my compositions and it appears this is going to be out of my reach considering I donât believe I will have the motivation to go âinto the weedsâ to obtain the required results. I must say that I donât find playing around with parameters very rewarding (perhaps one day I will) and it is extremely time consuming, but it is obviously the result you get after doing so that my well justify it. I do thank you though for your insight and feedback. I had another message for you regarding VSL if you ever get the chance or are willing to answer it. All this feedback from the Steinberg community in this blog has proved very helpful. I didnât think I would get any responses which hasnât been the case. That is major advantage of Musescore; the worldwide Musescore community is absolutely enormous and there is a major sharing of information, so finding tips and tricks and advice is relatively easy.
I wish I could, but I have not actually dared to try them out in Dorico yet. The reason for this is that I have noticed that they all are quite resource intensive, and it would simply not be feasible for everyday use, especially for large scores. Furthermore, in order to make modeled instruments shine, more CC automation is needed in general to prevent them from sounding too stiff (which process Wallander Instruments conveniently have managed to automate for us in NotePerformer). What I have done though is the following borderline insane procedure:
- Create expression maps for my instruments.
- Hook them up to individual instances of Dorico Beep in an orchestral project with every instrument I might use present.
- Export endpoint setups for everything.
- Use my newly created endpoint setups to create a custom âdummyâ orchestra Playback Template.
- Apply this dummy Playback Template to any project of choice.
- Export MIDI for the selected project.
- Import the MIDI into REAPER.
- Run a Python script that automatically hooks up every MIDI track to the desired custom built REAPER track template and freezes said tracks (to save resources).
And BAM! Now I have an excellent starting point for tweaking my performance however I wish, by unfreezing, editing and freezing every VI track one by one until satisfied.
IMO, the VSL products (while somewhat poorer timbres â somewhat stiffer IMO) appear to have way more solid programming compared BBCSO â more consistent articulations and dynamics plus less phasing, and the Dorico audio exports with these playback templates I have heard so far are to my ears way less awkward in terms of realism compared to BBCSO. The fact that they create their expression maps for Dorico might of course also contribute to a less frustrating experience. I canât however say for sure why you might have heard that there would be less problems with VSL compared to BBCSO â this is pure speculation.
Finally a disclaimer: I have never in my life neither owned nor worked with any VSL product. The same is true for BBCSO. My opinions of these libraries are purely based on their demos and walkthroughs and watching other people demoing these libraries. The vast majority of my sample library experience comes largely from working with the Soundsonline ecosystem, whose products appear to have similar issues like Spitfire Audioâs products â resulting in particularly bad solo instrument patches except for the percussion. Thatâs why I have gravitated towards modeled approaches, which I have found to be vastly more expressive, responsive and predictable.
thank you so much Frigolito for your feedback. I have taken note and will add this to my thinking on what to do next and in which direction I should go with sound. My gut tells me that, at this point, I should follow the NotePerformer path â the so-called âgreat sound libraryâ route has proved either disappointing or uncertain. Iâve paid a heavy price, mostly in time but also in cost, pursuing the BBCSO and VEPro path. Still, Iâve learned a lot along the way. In hindsight, I wish Iâd known this before starting. Thanks for all your advice.
This partially depends on how many dynamics you write into pieces. Some pieces are quite detailed in terms of hairpins etc written into the score and they are there quite frequently. Then you might have to manually shape CCâs less. Others write with very few < and > and then you might need to do more shaping to create the result. So it partially depends on your orchestral writing to begin with. But it should definitely be less shaping than you might need with some modeled libraries. The difference is that with modeled, playing a note without shaping sounds synthetic, while with VSL it just sounds a bit lifeless or timid. With lines that are more background to begin with that the listener is focusing on less, you can often get by without addressing them individually, but with modeled instruments thereâs a greater need to shape all lines. The most important thing to address is any case will be the lines that the listenerâs attention will most likely be drawn to. And no matter which choice you go with, adding shaping to everything is going to give you the best result, but often it is a more practical matter if you donât really have time to add shaping to everything.
Popping sound during a tutti can have different potential causes, usually related to some kind of overload. Are you on Windows or Mac?
Thanks for your response. I am using Windows 11 and using a Focusrite Scarlet 4th Gen for the asio driver. I have tried many things (following advice of ChatGpt which may or may not have helped), changing parameters in windows, Scarlett, in the Spitfire plugin etc. Nothing worked.
I know I am sounding obstinate in wanting to find a lovely sound (it surely is a noble quest!) and was toying with the idea of taking a risk in buying some VSL libraries like Synchron Prime Orchestra Library (for symphony and chamber) , VSL Synchron Solo Strings I bundle (for string quartet) and VSL Synchron Solo Violin I (for solo) that may prove better for Dorico. But Iâm reticent. Iâm concerned that I will run into the 2 same problems I currently have with BBCSO Pro which are 1) unacceptable sound that requires major tweaking that I wouldnât have a clue how to do or wouldnât want to invest the great deal of time required to make it work assuming one can actually make it work in Dorico and 2) the popping I am getting. I was wondering, the fact that delivery would not be ideal with VSL as you said unless I manually drew the CC curves, at least I may find happiness in the sound which would perhaps compensate for the less than ideal delivery.
You probably have to increase your buffer size in the Focusrite control panel. It could also be SSD overload (generally you would use a different SSD for samples vs the one you use to boot your computer) or other background processes taking away CPU.
It is hard to say how people will react to certain samples, it is a very individual thing. I love the VSL stuff but not everybody does.
VSL does rotating sales often enough where you usually wonât go more than 8-10 months between a particular product going on sale. I would suggest waiting for a sale. One good thing with VSL is their return policy because you can return it for a refund within two weeks of purchase as long as you buy from them directly through their store. Most companies donât have this type of return policy and instead if you buy something you are stuck with it.
Unlike many of their competitors VSL also occasionally offers free trial versions of individual libraries. I have three VSL libraries that were purchased after experiencing the trial versions.
thanks Mike for the tip
Thanks for the information. I have tried higher buffer size but it didnât work. I though the bottleneck wasnât my SSD (where everything sits). perhaps I could transfer the library (not sure if it is possible or easy from my internal SSD to an external SSD that I have handyâŚ
Thanks for the tip regarding VSL, that really lowers the risk of acquisition.._
The bottleneck could be the CPU, but it could also be the SSD. Usually people who have heavier sample libraries run them off a separate SSD than their boot drive. If you only have the one SSD and it is also your boot drive then it would not perform quite as well.
Hi Jordan, in your very first post in your thread you said you hd VE Pro are you using it?
I have a MacBook so I cannot speak for a PC but putting all my instruments in VE Pro running on the same Mac so not on a second Mac or PC has hugely improved trouble free playback without pops.
I am now using 100% VSL SY and Studio libraries for a full orchestral template (minimum 4 instruments per section, 8 horns, and solo, full and two divisi for strings) with VE Pro and MIR (as plugin in VE Pro) with Dorico.
I used to tweak CC with curves and individual note related changes a lot (modulation and vibrato mostly) but was after a few weeks often resetting all again.
I have now nearly fully switched to hidden dynamics and sometimes articulations in Dorico to get the best possible playback and of course very regular balancing and sound quality checks between individual instruments group and sections.
Hi Mavros, yes I bought Vepro as I was trying to get BBCSO Pro to work directly with Dorico and couldnât put up with the amount of time I had to wait for things to load. I have found that trying to use BBCSO Pro direct through Dorico was a nightmare, but going through Vepro is indeed a major improvement. That said, I am seriously considering returning to Musescore as the amount of tinkering required to get a good sound with my set up is not something I had envisaged. It is totally my fault having thought that all I needed to do to get a good sound was to buy a good sound library and just press play. I bought Dorico as I wanted to have a top piece of software and bought BBCSO Pro as I wanted a great sound. But I have learnt it is not as simple as that. I have trialled NotePerformer and while playback is good there are still strange things happening that will require intervention (for instance the note duration being too short for what should be legato) . The more components you integrate on top of the base notation software the more problems you run into. The same applies with integrating Vepro. I am starting to really miss the feeling of plug and play simplicity of Musescore though of course the software and the sounds are far from perfect. I have spent 12 hours a day over the last 6 weeks playing around with parameters, reading countless blog exchanges and documentation and toying with different options in this experiment of transitioning to a new platform. I am unfortunately on the point of giving up. This has nothing to do with the Dorico software which appears to be well designed. Using Dorico with the incorporated Iconica Sketch sound library only may be an alternate solution for me.