Original key signature from instruments

Dorico
#1

Hello again;
Now I am really distressed with a new challenge that has been put to me:
I have to copy to Dorico a part of a score (excerpt from Swan Lake - Tschaikovsky) that was loaned to me, but presents as you can see in the attached photo; B clarinets; B and F trumpets. Dorico does not foresee B clarinet - first problem, so all relations to the other instruments will not be correct.
Worse still is when he foresees B and F trumpets; in the change of key signature also visible in the photo; if you try to change the key signature for B clarinets and / or B trumpets, Dorico changes all other instruments accordingly - well - but in this case since the key is Am (relative of C) and the transpositions are made in the course of the work and not in the base key signature; I can not get the key signature simple with 2 sharps for B clarinets; B pistons (B trumpets) and no accidentals for F trombe (F trumpets).

Question 1: Is it possible to choose the pitch when choosing the instrument?

Question 2: Is it possible after the instrument has been chosen and entered in the score, to change the key signature for it without altering the rest?

This is only for the copy of the paper for Dorico; then I will (of course) transpose the instruments to their most common current tones (Bb clarinets; Bb trumpets - both).
If you have to do all this before, then sign up for Dorico and then reduce the score to a band …!
It’s for complicated subjects like that I hope the software helps me to accelerate; for the simple questions already had a pencil, a rubber and a lot of paper …!
I look forward to your help with suggestions for solutions that I hope to have; alternatively many issues to contemplate in future updates.
Advance grateful,
Sincerely
To-coruche

#2

There are no pictures in your post…
You can apply Key Signatures to single staves using alt-enter when entering a new KS for each staff.
Are you sure those trumpets in B are not in Bb (I think for german musicians, B IS our B flat, and our B natural is H) ?

#3

I’m sorry MarcLarcher
I think now the attachments are ok.
And yes…its a old custom that some composers used - Tschaikovsky is one of them. I have already copied E trumpets (not E flat); interestingly from Swan Lake too.
“Alt-enter” opens the botom menu; and “shift+K” let me define the KS but after “enter” all the staffes change their KS in accordance naturally.
That is the problem (too).

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#4

What I meant was : select a rest or a note in your staff, “shift-K” to enter your key signature, and then alt-enter, so this key signature is attached only to this staff.
It is not really clear on the photograph, but I only see KS in C and some in D at number 19. This would highly suggest that the B instruments ARE in B flat, wouldn’t it ?

#5

Well… sorry but the photo was too big and the compression don’t help. It’s two moments of the same peace; it starts in E major (nº 17) then switch to A minor (nº 19); but in fact, it’s written in C (as you can see by picolo, flutes, strings, etc).
As always you have solve my problem…
In which part of all the manuals of this Dorico is written that you described to me … After popover “shift + K” next KS AND THEN “SHIFT + ENTER”.
That’s the solution for my problem …!
Because some instruments are written at real key, others in its relative one. In some of them the accidentals appear during the music like the horns (in both numbers written without any change in KS - apparently C major)
A thousand pardons and a million thanks (again); please ask Daniel if you can write a Dorico’s user manual. We all be grateful.
Sincerely
To-coruche

#6

THEN “ALT+ENTER”…ok

#7

To-Coruche, you’re going a very weird way around what you’re doing.

The “proper” way to do what you’re trying to do:

In Setup mode: choose your instruments carefully - they have a multitude of keys and transpositions.
Then in Layout Options make sure your score is set to be a Transposed Score.

With your current method the music will look beautiful but sound polytonal.

#8

Those instruments are surely B-flat instruments, not B-natural. For one thing, ask a clarinetist or a trumpet player — you won’t find one who owns an instrument in B-natural, because they don’t exist (as far as I know).

But you can also tell by looking at the key signatures. Instruments in B-flat play music in concert B-flat with no sharps or flats — that is, they subtract two flats. So you can see here, they subtract two flats from this key signature of no flats, and end up with two sharps. You can see this at rehearsal 19 in the excerpt you posted.

The instrument label for the timpani also shows that German spelling is used here — the timpani are indicated to be tuned in “E, Fis, H.”

You’re correct about the trumpets in E-natural however.

#9

Also, presumably “Pistons” refers to “cornets à pistons” (cornets, not trumpets, since the score uses both) which in the 19th century were only in Bb and A - The “cornet in Eb” which is part of the standard UK brass band was never an orchestral instrument.

#10

Dear to-coruche,

I am glad I could help you with this.
A proper manual is being written, a writer has joined Dorico’s team in July and this documentation will be provided when it is done.
You can use the alt-enter trick for key signatures but also for Measures (shift M) if you need to have 3/4 on one staff and 4/4 on another at the same time.
I’ve learned all those tricks reading carefully the forum since 19th October 2016 :wink:

#11

Dear friends,
I am grateful to you all for your precious help, but I would like you to know more or less the reason for some of my questions.
The point of choice of the instruments and their tuning is the first thing I have to do in English, or French, or Italian, because the poor quality of the translation of the various menus into Portuguese (my native language) is such that I am forced to choose other languages ​​(a subject I have previously discussed with Daniel) - is being addressed.
Next, part of the work is to begin by transcribing for Dorico works whose scores are some “dinosaurs”; and my dear JulianBennettHolmes, just because they do not exist today does not mean they did not exist in the old days … and my role is to take these paper “dinosaurs” and adapt them to the best of today in the digital format (I hope let Dorico do it).
As Rob Tuley said and well said “pistons” refers to “cornets à pistons” - Cornets but in B natural; as well as the “trombe” - in F natural; but which have gradually been replaced by trumpets - which I also intend to do in this case.
We have all heard Beethoven’s “Heroic” and at its end is written a part for F natural clarinet … it is nevertheless played and heard (fortunately), probably the A natural clarinet will replace it (?)
I am a trumpeter, I studied piano and organ; and I saw scores of the sixteenth century; XVII and XVIII that would make many musicians I know blush such were the written aberrations.
Finally my dear MarcLarcher, I try to read old posts in the forum but I also have to simultaneously write (or try) in Dorico; hence my faults.
I’ll be waiting for the proper manual, as well as a better translation from Dorico to portuguese.
Let’s try to help make Dorico really the best music writing program.
Greetings to all
To-coruche

#12

No. If you enter the notes that way, the playback will tell you that you are wrong! They are in B flat, not B natural.

#13

Unless, of course, the music was by Gesualdo. :slight_smile: