Page Template strangeness with Custom Templates and Image

Dorico
1

I have a quartet score with 2 systems per frame, and a lot of whitespace in between the systems. I decided to decorate a couple of the score pages with specific score-related images which would sit within this whitespace.

In Engrave, I created a new Custom Page Template “Default with Img”, from “Default”, and placed the image box in the center of the frame. I drew these manually on the left and right panes (not “Copy L->R”). I set a Page Template Change on the specific page I wanted. The specific page correctly showed the large X.

The final page of the score has only 1 system, so this needed a different page template to place the image at the bottom of the page. In Engrave, I created a new Custom Page Template “Final with Img”, from “Default with Img”. I set the final page of the score with Page Template Change to this new template.

In Write, in the middle of the score, I clicked on the X, to set the image. Then I realized the Image Frame needed adjustment to dimensions to better sit within the systems.

In Engrave, I edited the “Default with Img” template to better dimensions, modifying both left and right panes manually. This seems Ok. In Write, I set the image by clicking on the X, to “Image 1” ( forget if that page happened to be the L pane or the R pane, but it must have been the L pane, because…).

The strangeness:

In Engrave, I edited the “Final with Img” Page Template to modify the dimensions. In Engrave, this template shows “Image 1” on the left pane, when it was not assigned there. In Write, I went to the final page of the score (perhaps seems to, coincidentally, be an “R” pane) to click on the X and assigned the “Image 2” to the final page of the score.

The separate template, “Final with Img”, inherited the image from “Default with Img”.

It is not clear how or if the Add New Page Template is inheriting, or not, various properties from the “Based on:” template.

The score layout is now visually looking how I want it to look, however, if the length of the score were to change (i.e. formatting causes the Page Template to use a different “L” or “R” pane) then it is strange that the “Final with Img” Page Template could suddenly print “Image 1” where it is supposed to place “Image 2”, because of this inheritance or stray reference.

Hopefully all that was clear…

I have noticed funny business with Images in Page Templates in my other scores, i.e. somehow the reference to the image is mixed up with a different image, when it was completely unexpected. But I assumed this was my error perhaps because of using the same Page Template assigned as overrides to different score pages, although overall it is not clear whether Image assignment is unique to the specific page, or unique to the Pane (i.e. “L” or “R”), or if it is global for all pages using that Page Template, or if somehow the Image becomes assigned to other later Page Templates because of creating the Template with "Based on:", etc etc…

2

Could you please attach a relevant portion of your project?

1 Like
3

I can’t attach the project although by following my description it should be relatively easy for anyone to reproduce this behavior in an empty project.

4

It should be even easier for you to create the substitute project with sharable content and attach it here.

7 Likes
5

Page templates that are “based on” other page templates, retain links between shared frames.

For instance, if you create a new page template “based on” the Default page template, then change the text tokens in the running header text frame (at the top) on the New page template, those tokens also change on the Default page template.

Deleting and re-creating frames breaks this link.

It sounds like you created a page template with a graphics frame on it, then created a new page template based on that, then changed in the image in the new page template. It wouldn’t surprise me that as a consequence, the image used in both page templates is changed.

Also note that a page template graphics frame can only ever show one image: you can’t override the image in a graphics frame on just one page.

The best way to be sure, is for you to share either the original project, or a separate project that demonstrates the issue. It’s often much easier for other users to dig into a project, than carefully read and digest your text description, then recreate your steps themselves (but without any guarantee they’ve included the precise context you’ve encountered).

7 Likes
6

This explains it. This inheritance feature might be more clear if, when creating a new Page Template, the “Based on:” said instead, “Parent:”, and if while editing the Page Template, it showed what the parent was (i.e. at the top bar next to the “L->R” buttons, have an information display that says the name of the parent template). I believe the way this inheritance is shown (i.e. in the UI) in Paragraph Style editing for example, makes it visually clear that a user-custom style is derived from a parent style.

There is also the confusion that an Image can be assigned in 2 ways. Either, when editing the Page Template (by clicking the big X); or, can be assigned in Write mode on the page itself (by clicking the big X or clicking the image itself) which I believe creates a Page Override. I try to avoid Page Overrides because they cause their own complexities. That an Image can only be assigned once globally, is a surprise; I assumed that each use of the Page Template would allow a new image to be assigned, i.e. “Default with Img” page template used on multiple pages could each have their own unique image: this means that, hypothetically in a large score, I would have to create dozens of custom Page Templates, each with the respective unique image for the specific page, and assign those respective Page Templates as Page Template Overrides to their specific, respective pages. This seems relatively cumbersome, doesn’t it?

It could be beneficial to provide a Lock Template mechanism on a Page Template so that the template can’t be overridden (i.e. make those page elements Read Only). Editing a page template area in Write mode still happens to me every so often and then I realize my mistake (that I had accidentally created a Page Override), then I have to undo the edit or undo the Page Override, go into Engrave mode to fix the Page Template itself, to re-edit what I wanted to edit in the first place.

Most likely I should have created my custom templates Based on: (none) although that means re-creating all the elements of the Default page template, which is a bit of busywork.

Taking lots of extra time to create example projects to demonstrate problems is not necessary when the members have proper reading comprehension. Knee-jerk replies from a peanut gallery to “post the project” will only dissuade users from posting their obstacles/bugs at all.

7

What if we were confused about a step and needed to clarify? What if you missed some important info? What if we wanted more info? The conversation could go on for days… It might have actually been quicker for you to sort out a shareable project than to type a lot of your description.

If you haven’t already, have a read of the following post, particularly section 4:

In the end it’s you who has asked for help and this is your fastest route (if you want a fast one).

7 Likes
8

We ask users to share projects because that is the most reliable way of correctly diagnosing issues and offering bespoke, accurate advice.

It’s up to you of course, but if you have a specific issue that occurs in specific circumstances, you’re much more likely to get quicker and more relevant responses when you share a project file.

People all have their own lives and demands on their time: if you wish them to devote some of that time to helping you, I personally consider it a courtesy to make doing so as easy as possible.

8 Likes
11

I created page templates, then assigned overrides in Engrave, this worked for the purpose.

Now, I have taken the same score, and copied the Layout to a new layout, changed page orientation and staff size, which significantly changed the total number of pages in the new layout. The original layout is still Ok. Now in this new layout, Dorico is showing many blank pages at the end of the score (i.e. pages of the Default template which contain no staves). Is this a known problem? i.e. Making a layout configuration which changes the number of pages, when Overrides have been previously set, then creates problems with blank pages? Assuming of course that the Page Overrides are the culprit.

For now, I will work around this problem by only printing the pages which contain staves. Otherwise Dorico would print 7 extra pages of the Default template with no staves on the pages.

12

The blank pages at the end must either have overrides or template/flow title/page number changes. These should be visible on the right hand side where you can see all your pages. Select each one and remove whatever is on these pages and they will disappear.

2 Likes
13

You’re likely to find a bunch of overrides on these blank pages. If there is a page with an override on it, it will not be removed.

Check those pages in the Pages panel and see if there are any coloured triangles on them. Delete them, if so.

1 Like
14

Pages are separate entities to the music. So, if you make changes to a page, whether or not music is on the page is largely irrelevant: the page will display what you have told Dorico to display on it. In this case you’ve assigned an override to page “whatever” (which happens to be at the end of a flow) and then decreased the size of the music. But Dorico is still doing what you’ve told it to do: displaying “this” override to “this” page.

I wouldn’t be surprised if you actually have a similar number of pages in both Layouts?

15

Yes, as posters above me have said, Dorico preserves your page overrides, even if the pages to which those page overrides are assigned are no longer “needed” based on the amount of music in the layout.

17

Don’t click the link

*spam post has been removed

18

You can flag spammers (I now did).

19

Already did

1 Like