pitch correct scales are totally wrong!!!

Something’s totally whacked.

No only are the internal scales wrong but they also show the note names at the wrong keys.

Come on!!!

Edit: it seems the major scale is ok but it messes up the notes when switching between keys. Once you close the plugin and reopen - the major scale is ok.

The minor scale however is a HARMONIC minor and not a minor scale. Harmonic minor scales are almost never used in modern music so why on earth is that preset with a wrong name?!?!?

Oh well…just another bug I guess-.

Harmonic minor is correct.
The difference between the two (harmonic and melodic minor) is that the human voice does not like to sing the same scale minors coming down as it does going up. It’s a (mostly) physical limitation of the human voicebox.
That’s why songs change key. Thus strictly speaking the melodic minor doesn’t exist (yes, I know it does) on it’s own but only accompanies the harmonic minor for practical purposes as outlined above. although the blues scale minor, being the same going both ways, does.

Nothing to do with Cubase really.

I don’t know what you mean by the “Once you open and close the plugin… it’s ok.” Lost me on that one.

I noticed the scales were all messed up back in cubase 5, I can’t believe its still an issue in 6!!

I was amazed that they messed up the notes in the scales SO BADLY. Who programed the rules of music into this plugin?? its really really wrong! You can make it work tho… if i remember correctly you can just tell it what notes you wanna use so its not like no work around exists.

Good plugin otherwize… But perhaps the programmers can get a Yamaha sponsorship for music theory classes LOL or send them back for some suzuki training :wink:


I have never heard of the limitation of the human voice to sing harmonic minor vs natural… i don’t really believe that… if you have a developed ear, it can be done either way IMO

I can only presume you’re being massively ironic - in which case I pretty much just pissed my pants laughing. If you were serious, I’m gonna have a massive bump on my head from banging my head on a brick wall.

Aloha guys
IMHO V is right.
This is exactly the way I learned this while
taking harmony/theory/orchestration/ while in college.
Weird concept huh?

But things do change. That’s why it is called ‘music theory’
{’-’}

I am pretty sure it’s only MELDOIC minor that is different going up and coming down… Not because of the human voice likes it better, but just because that’s what makes it melodic minor!

ANYWAYS, this plugin should be more focused on Natural Minor and normal Major as starting places… Like, if my song is in A minor, I only want white notes… Any other instuments i am using will avoid # and b’s so the freebie autotune better stick to the same rulez!!

I just don’t bother to use this plugin anyways… I have and choose autotune 5 first (which works like a champ and has the right scales programmed into it!!! (i will NEVER go EVO… plugin latency is no fun!))

FUNNY how great minds came together to code a pitch correction plugin and got this really basic detail so wrong… Even funnier that since Cubase 5, Steinberg has not seen it as an issue worth resolving

A natural minor: A B C D E F G
A harmonic minor: A B C D E F G#
A melodic minor in classical harmony (voice-leading!): up A B C D E F# G# down A B C D E F G
A melodic minor as a (jazz) imrovisational scale: up and down A B C D E F# G#

that´s it :wink:

correct!
So, where´s the problem.
tip of the day: use your ears.
(no kiddin)
:wink:

This debate on musical theory is very interesting (no, really) but I would like to hear from the OP about how he found the problem, i.e. a repro.

I use PitchCorrect myself and found it to have a very useful subtlety that can even be used to smooth out VariAudio. But I do seem to remember that when I first began using it I ended up using the default chromatic scale because it sounded better than what was theoretically the correct scale to use. At the time I shrugged and got on with it but this post has made me want to revisit it.

Not as much as you might think, though. Theory is a very misleading term, in the current understanding of the word, but perhaps we ought to adjourn to the lounge for this highly interesting field. It could be a lengthy (and lively) debate! :wink:

Correctamundo. You understood what I meant. Never have I offended so many “music students” by telling them the rules. And I don’t use the feature much either as I know what I’m doing.
They call it music theory because everyone has a theory about what the RULES are. None more so than owners of a certain DAW. :mrgreen:

Well I found out because it kept changing the minor 7th (which belongs in the minor natural minor scale) to a major seventh (which doesn’t belong in the natural minor scale).

I assume this a simply a mistake or else Steinberg takes for granted that most of us Cubase users make jazz or classical music.

The other thing is a bug I noticed when trying to figure out what went wrong. The bug is explained again:

WHen changing keys or scales the noted marked on the GUI piano is messed up. But when shutting down and reopening the plugin the notes are correct again.

Spot on

Oh dear, what a mess. I’m faintly embarrassed to have asked you for a repro now but I didn’t think it would be quite so obvious. I found E Major particularly amusing.

I confirm the display element of the bug, for that is what it most surely is, including the restoration on reopening the plugin interface. It looks like the white note labels are slipping into the gaps left by the black ones. I ahven’t tested for actual wrong notes being produced but I don’t doubt you for a minute or I’m sure you wouldn’t have mentioned it.

The default Chromatic seem to be okay, though. I’ve used it quite a bit and had no problem.

Btw: May I point out that Natural Minor presets (i.e. Am with all the white notes) are present in the form of the relative Major scale (3 semitones up in case you need to know). Whether they work correctly seems to be in some doubt now.

Lasso, can you post up a sample of what you were using when you discovered the minor/major seventh bug?

The melodic quality of the human voice is what makes it melodic not the assumption that that’s the way it should be.
Ask any classical singer. They know to the nth degree what makes melodic human notes tick and it’s got nothing to do with machinery like Cubase. But Cubase will use the common debominator, and yes, it does assume that most players will be classically skilled or jazz players because, unlike the rest of us they write the documented and academically accepted rules and don’t make assumptions without very deep study.

There could well be a bug in there though if things are as Lasso describes in the piano GUI.
But this tells me something. Jazz and classically trained users will rarely use that feature as mainly it’s an aid for those who are not musically trained. But. Don’t bite my head off. That doesn’t mean untalented. And it’s allowed to be untrained.
I’m contributing because I feel it’s better to be informed than not. If there’s anything to fix it may well be quicker if you point out the right bugs than the wrong ones.

Designed for jazz and clasical musicians??? Thats kindof an odd group to focus on for the TPAIN plug in cubase :confused: Perhaps they need [mode a] [mode b] where you can tell the plugin if you do popular tonality or classical mode>>?? i could see this usefull on a honky sax so ya, modes for everyone! :mrgreen:

another theory lesson:

The harmonic minor scale with it´s raised 7th degree was invented to have the opportunity to build a dominan seventh chord on the 5th degree. In A minor you would get a E minor chord on the 5th degree, which doesn´t want to resolve to the tonic. By raising the G note to G# you get an E major Chord or even better an E7 chord, which resolves perfectly to the tonic A minor chord. Leading not G#->A
Problem: the melodic jump of the harmonic minor scale between F and G#, a raised second interval, sounds awkward and unpleasent.
In comes the melodic minor scale!
By raising the 6th degree F to F# you get back all half and whole steps, melody sounds smooth again.
A melody leading to the octave note profits from a raised 6th and 7th degree, smooth voiceleading, similiar to the major scale:
6->7->8
Moving back down to the 5th degree on the other hand sounds smoother with 6th and 7th degree back to normal:
8->b7->b6->5
That´s why we have the diffrent notes upwards and downwards whith the melodic minor scale.
Ypou can hear this in many works, i.e. Bach - Prelude E minor or Beatles - Yesterday

Using the melodic minor scale this way as an improvisational scale is unpractical, too complicated. Therefore you keep the raised intervals all the time. You can build modes out of it. Jazz players use those modes a lot, i.e. the famous altered scale on the 7th degree of melodic minor.

No. It’s not designed for them. They’ve taken the line of least resistance and used the basic established musical rules and not cluttered the design with rules that are still being discussed, as we see here.

Thanks sirius. You’ve just explained the “wolf tones” as well which are anomalies on the string theories of music where the shortening of the string lengths (halve it and you’re up an octave…etc) runs into physical (musical) limitations at certain points of the string division. Thus rendering some classic minor scalings to need modification at certain points. There have been some guitar fretboard designs to acheive a more homogenised scaling. One of which was to point the frets to a point some feet from below the neck. Not taken up so I guess guitar designers went for simplicity as well. It’s also why drum kits need damping to reduce harmonic interference from the various skins.

Hi there,

I can confirm the issue, closing then re-opening the plug-in UI labels the keys correct then. (29303)

Thanks for the report.

Best regards,
Christian

Thank you Christian.

Any chance of adding a normal minor scale to the presets? :mrgreen: