I have a PT with one Endpoint Config which is 1-1 for all the instruments in the orchestra, to several VEP instances. Here you can see the Playback Template with BBCSO VEP Manual Endpoint, in that you can see the instruments apply to instrument family VSTS’s, “VEP Woodwinds”, “VEP Brass”, etc. Very simple setup
Which can’t be used. With Vienna Ensemble Pro only the first can connect to the instance, the second can’t connect to the already busy instance, so this is completely unusable.
I don’t see how to simplify this PT any more than it is - why is it doing this sparse application of instruments and creating multiple VST’s when it needs to be only a single one?
For some perhaps… I have a very similar setup. You didn’t show which endpoints make up the playback template you applied. As a note, this will always happen with divisi (multiple VSTs of VEP loading and all but the first fails).
Also, when I run into these kinds of problems, I create a trimmed template made up of only the endpoint that is causing problems and throwing halion or iconica as the default at the bottom. This will also show if the other endpoint “takes” an instrument that should be covered in your own endpoint.
Sorry, not following what you mean by “which Endpoints”? This is the template that created the Endpoint and what I need - just a mapping of instrument famlies 1-1
On divisi, the score has an embedded sketch score with Sketch instruments - Winds, Brass etc. Neither have independent voice playback (which is what is relevant for divisi I assume?)
I meant which endpoints make up the playback template that you applied (but I see the picture now). But I guess it doesn’t matter. I suggest you try a trimmed playback template, adding one of your endpoints at a time and you’ll find the offending players.
Actually, your last pic explains it, sort of. The sketch player “Brass (C)” is being interpreted as a doubling of whatever is on port 1/ch 1 of the VEP Brass endpoint.
Bingo! OK good to know, but looking back at the first post, while I double port 1 in the first Endpoint, it also drops ports 10 and 13, but then in the second Endpoint is tosses in 12, so makes a fruit salad.
OK thanks for your help, much appreciated. Takeaway you’re saying is that doublings or divisi cause these kinds of issues.
Ugh this is going to take some work but I’ll just have to dig deeper and see if I can sort it. I’ll post back here again if I find something.
It certainly can. In my template, I make use of section player patches, so, e.g., a flute a3. For that I use the section player in setup, so Dorico doesn’t think I have 4 flutes instead of 3 single players and section player.
OK, wrapping my head about this … maybe I should see if there’s a different way to whack this
My goal is to have an embedded sketch score, so that I can copy/paste music over to the final score for orchestration. I’m reusing instruments between the two, previously I used Note Performer just for the Sketch, but Playback Engines have been discontinued and NP is just problematic in other ways (it tended to start grabbing main instruments and getting messed up), so I’m unifying them here.
But maybe that’s the wrong approach, maybe I should just use a different library, say Iconica Sketch exclusively for Sketch instruments, and BBCSO for the final. I lose out on getting to work with BBCSO early in the process (if I touch up CC’s), but whatever, Iconica is easier to work with anyhow, gets me a quicker easy result, and doesn’t have the messyness of Note Performer (which has a tendency to start grabbing stuff via it’s automatic configuration nature.) What do you think?
By “score”, do you mean project, flow or just a layout? But if I understand correctly, you have a sketch Brass player that you want to doodle with and paste the thought in an orchestration somewhere else. I would just create a sectional player of, say tubas (or some other brass instrument rarely in a section, like Dorico’s “serpent” ), and route that to the appropriate endpoint/port/channel (editing instrument names, of course).
Using another library probably won’t help with player doubling. You’d still need a separate instrument type or it will try to route it to the endpoint where the instrument exists and create a new endpoint that fails, as you well know.
It’s a custom score layout only with dedicated instruments only used in that score - they’re all Sketch type instruments. It’s two staff each Winds/Brass/Perc/Keys/Strings kind of thing, yes exactly I block out and rough in the score. Later that all gets transferred for final orchestration to the full score. John Williams uses a similar approach on paper, but he has orchestrators so leaves those messy details to them
Using another library probably won’t help with player doubling. You’d still need a separate instrument type
OK, you’re saying I need an instrument type not in the main score, like Harmonica. Except now I’m confused, all the Sketch instruments are the Sketch types, such as “Woodwind” instrument in the “Sketch” family, which doesn’t exist in the main score, so that should be OK right?
So, is the problem that two instruments are mapping to the same VST endpoint - or - that there’s two instruments of the same type? My score is different instruments that map to instrument VST endpoints which are also used in the main score.
As far as I know, Dorico will load all VSTs for all instruments in the project, regardless of flow or layout.
I’m fairly certain your original problem (double-loading of VEP VST instance) has to do with more than one instrument (type? unsure of nomenclature) that Dorico has previously mapped to an endpoint. It then finds another and tries to load the endpoint again.
Basically, you need to find out why Dorico believes Brass (C) should route to the VEP Brass instance, port 1/ch. 1.
EDIT: I just created and empty project, added Sketch for Brass and Strings and applied the Iconica template. Somehow, Dorico maps the Brass sketch instrument to Horn and Strings to Cello … interesting.
So under the covers, it appears Dorico predefined which instrument these Sketch players hold. Although I’m not a betting man, I’d wager you have F. Horn set up on VEP Brass port1/ch. 1.
EDIT2: (no need to bet, I can see it in your screenshot above )
Yeah sketch winds are always clarinet, brass a horn, strings a cello. I’ve not looked at the instrument editor yet, interestingly you can’t create an instrument from scratch, only create on from an existing. So yeah that indicates there’s hidden necessary metadata they didn’t expose to the UI, one which apparently is how to map it to an endpoint.
So basically, if you have any one of those in your project, the endpoints will “duplicate” like you’ve seen.
I did a test. I added all the sketch instruments plus a Piano and applied the Iconica template. Seems Bass staff, Treble staff and Grand staff all resolve to the piano player. I then added a different piano VST, routed the piano to it, saved the endpoint and created a playback template with just that endpoint with my stand-alone piano VST. Applied it and presto: 3 additional endpoints were created.
I guess the bottom line is: You are going to need to use some grand staff instrument to sketch on whose resolved player isn’t in your project.
EDIT: If you use the sketch section instruments, it works, i.e., after applying my single piano template, the Grand staff (section) instrument did not get routed anywhere.
This might not be practical for your situation, but I use VEP, and I don’t bother with using playback templates at all.
Instead, what I do is manually add the the VEP instances under the Dorico VST and MIDI tab while in Play mode and click the “e” to connect to the VEP instance I want. You’ll also have to click the gear settings icon to set the correct number of ports and channels for that instance.
Then, for each instrument in my score, under the Track Inspector tab in Play Mode, in the Routing section, I’ll assign the instrument to the VEP instance I want, set the instrument’s Port and channel to match their port and channel in VEP, and then I’ll assign the instrument the correct expression map (and percussion map if necessary).
This process does take more time, but you don’t have to worry about playback templates doing weird things and you won’t have any surprises (except for occasional troubleshooting when you missed a step when routing everything).
Saved endpoints and created a playback template, then, when all was perfect with every imaginable player hooked up nicely…
I saved that as a Project Template.
I use the Project Template for large orchestral mockups/orchestrations etc. and I also have the ability to apply the template to small orchestra arrangements and chamber works – win, win.
Yes this is all in a project template I use which theoretically should avoid all this, win-win as you say, except for one thing; over time it gets corrupted. New VST’s get added, things get rerouted and actually dropped. Shouldn’t happen right? Somehow it does, in particular some percussion instruments lose their mapping. I used my VST mapping with Note Performer for the Sketch instruments and it turns into it’s own fruit salad. I sometimes wonder if it’s a fight between Automatic and Manual assignments, the automatic seems to be greedy.
I’ve been using this for a couple years, but this is why I’m working on getting a PT to work, I don’t have the time to screw around with it on a per project basis and it’s very frustrating to find it messed up.
Yeah unfortunately I often use a piano in the orchestra which is the resolved player for the grand staff right?
Well since I go in two phases - first I work in sketch, later work in the main score, maybe I can ping pong between the two? Meaning just have the sketch working at first, then deactivate them later. Not sure there’s a way to deactivate a player from playback though …
No it shouldn’t unless as you say below, an already-applied template gets greedy.
Yes, but like I wrote earlier, you can use the Brass/Strings etc. Sketch instruments, you just need to choose them as section players and not individual players. At least the small test I did shows it worked.
You shouldn’t have to. I struggled just like you trying to get a 3 flutes patch to work with individual players, then I realized, “duh, why don’t you use a section player, it is, after all, a section!”
Thank you! Sorry there was a lot being discussed and I was having trouble zeroing in on a conclusion, it wasn’t clear that the section player trick would work. OK! I’ll try that, thanks so much guys I’ll let you know how it goes!
I have a very similar setup. You didn’t show which endpoints make up the playback template you applied. As a note, this will always happen with divisi (multiple VSTs of VEP loading and all but the first fails).
