Plea for Working Song Group Sends from Global Stacks

I’m here to beg for a fix so we can reliably use sends from global stacks to song group channels acting as effects channels for each song. I tried using non-global stacks but I’ve decided that introduces too many potential concerns with levels and routing. My preference would be to have the vocalists’ mics always on (subject to minor automated level changes when they switch lead and background) and processed (Waves PSE, SSL, Silk, Vocal Rider) so global tracks would be ideal. I add a tiny bit of additional compression on the output, some saturation and a touch of slap reverb from vintage verb. That gives me a good semi dry vocal sound. The song groups are then used as stereo effects channels where I can send the processed vocal channels to a mono to stereo plugin and then stereo effects (use waves reel adt for some vintage style vocal doubling and then either CLA Epic, vintage verb, or space rider for verb/delay). Similar situation for rhythm guitar. I use 2 sets of stereo outs for vocal fx and guitar fx sent via Dante to the mixer. Right now, the sends are failing at random (even though the appear to be engaged in the mixer page). When they stop working, if I switch the send to NC and back to the designated effects group channel, it starts to work again. Once I switch out of that song and come back to it later, same issue recurs.

All I am trying to do is get one set of vocal and guitar fx for each song. Literally everything else is a global channel (other than click track). I really don’t want to create a separate non-global stack for the effects because I then would need to reprocess the vocals for potentially multiple vocalists and guitars in those tracks which is a waste of CPU and feels like a band aid approach. Is it or will it be possible to do this and not have the sends kick off when I switch songs? There’s got to be a way to tie song specific sends to the global stacks!!!

Does anyone else see I way I can send mono PROCESSED vocals from global stacks to a stereo channel with different FX/delays/etc set for each song (and same with guitars)? I would prefer to avoid using midi automation on this if possible (in other words, I like having a discrete set of song groups for each song loaded with effects). I recognize as a last resort I could use a global group and automate the effects/levels/etc for each song, but that will take a lot of time and also introduces a whole new set of failure points.

I’ve been frustrated with this program, but with that said I think it has more potential than anything else out there at least for doing what I’d like it to do. I like the Steinberg interface, I like the thought process. I just really need to find a way to keep global stacks but also apply song specific effects in stereo using the already-processed vocals from the global stacks. I would like to output mono vocal channels for all 3 vocalists and a single stereo channel as a send FX with a different output (5 total channels for the vocals). Can we get there?!

Appreciate any thoughts you have and any comments from the Steinberg team. Have a great weekend.

Trying to follow and extract what you (want to) do.

Stacks have no Sends except for their internal FX.
This could either mean

  • you want to use Sends from the Stack Channel in the Mixer
  • you want to “send” to a certain destination by setting the Stack output to that. Please use the term “route” for setting outputs and not “send” to avoid confusion and clarify the use case.
    Really don’t want to be picky at all, but with routing issues it is important to know exactly along which pathes signals flow.

There are no Global “Tracks”, but Global Stacks are exactly right for that.

So you use Global Stack Channel Sends (?) to send to various Song Groups? Works fine here (see pic), what’s your problem exactly? I can also switch Songs at any time (using version 2.0.21).

What sends? How and from where do you send to the Output Channels?

Before anything else, pls clarify “switch send to” - what send? Do you mean you route output of the (Song?) Group Channel, or a Send (!) from…which channel, and to where, Output Channel to mixer?

Global Stack->Stack Channel Send->Song Group Channel->Output Channel (to mixer)

That would be what I’d expect, and works fine here. You will need to define a muted"Nirvana Channel" to have the Sends work.

From what i understood, he wants to have global stack routed to main out dry, then for each song he wants a song group with effects, only wet (no dry signal, so all the inserts on the song group will be wet/dry on 100% wet), then want to use a send on the global stack channel to send to the song group.

The point is, if he have 20 song, he cannot use 20 sends. So he wants to have all the song groups named “vocal FX” and use only 1 send on the global stack channel “send to vocal FX”. He wants this send to be active for every song group named the same. So:

Global stack > send to Vocal FX1 song group > each song has a song group named Vocal FX routed to main out > when song change, the global stack send send to the respective song group named vocal FX

Dont know if this is actually an options but i can see the advantages of the method. I actually opted for a global FX group and plugins automations for each song.

Ciao, Ciro.

This is sn option from the time, “song group” has been introduced. But as in my post in february this concept above caused confusion to the app.
Regarding this recent answer from @musicullum it should be working now isse-free in v2.0.21:

If still experiencing probl with same named song-groups through diff songs, I’m sure they can look after but they need a very specific explanation what’s not working if what set…

Wouldn’t it be easier to have one send in the global stack and turn it on/off by an automation track in the song?

No because:

  • stacks only have 2 internal sends maybe he has a plugin chains of 2 3 or 4 inserts in the group fx channel

  • he has 3 global vocal stacks that want to send to the same vocal fx song group at different send levels (like we normally do on an hardware mixer), and he wants to automate send levels for each song (and each song maybe has different FX chain in the vocal fx song group)

As i said, i opted for a global fx group and automated this for each song beacause i only need to change plugin parameters, but if you want to change the effects chain for each song, then song groups is the way, but it needs to correctly route the stack channel sends to same name song groups for different songs, otherwise you’ll need a different sends for each song group, but we only have 4 sends per channel (about it… i really need 5 sends for 5 inear monitors pleeeeeease :sweat_smile:)

Ciao! Ciro

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Ciro, you nailed it! That’s exactly what I want to do.

For that you can use a normal group channel, instead of an song group channel.

Sorry all for the confusion I created in the initial post. I was tired and accidentally used “track” instead of “stack” and also confused sending from the track output of the global stack with sending directly from the global stack. I want to send (not route) the dry audio from the mixer output of the mono global stack to another stereo group song channel for FX purposes. I am doing that with yesterday’s latest release and I am still losing the send audio when I return to a song from another song (it shows the send is active but no audio is sent unless I redo the send to the same location). I observed this behavior at least 10 times last night and it recurs after I redo the send. Sometimes it also odds switches the channel I am sending to (it will start to send to the guitar FX channel rather than the one designated for vocal FX and it appears to have something to do with the order of mixer channels which also seems to vary without me changing it - I noticed this phenomenon after I added another output so I could separate the vocal and guitar fx). I am happy to archive my project if that helps, although I am using 16+ mixer outputs through Dante so you may have to change the bussing to hear anything. If I could get this issue resolved, I would be very grateful.

How can I use a normal group if I want to use different plugins on each song? Isn’t that the point of song groups (to have discrete groups for each song)?

Does it make a difference whether the song group names are the same or different from song to song? I have tried to use a uniform naming convention (e.g., Vocal FX 1) from song to song, but would be happy to create song groups with song specific names if that alleviates the issue.

If you want to have different sound for each song yes. But why a global stack for that. In that case I would use an own stack in each song.

@fkalmus i tried it and it don’t work. Even if the song group have same name, they are considered different unique entities.

see the video:

@h20fam , maybe you can create song stacks, then route the global stack to the song stack via Virtual audio out - virtual audio in, and then the song stack send to the song group, i’ll try and report.

Cheers Ciro.

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So I see how you’ve set it up in your picture and I can’t do separate song group sends for each song because I only have 4 sends and way more than 4 songs. It was for that reason I was trying to use a uniform name for the effects “song group” in each song, hoping the send from the global stack mixer output would remember which song I am in and change levels for each song. But because it is a global stack mixer output, that may not be possible.

Maybe my workflow is weird, but I don’t think so as I’m trying to track how we’d do it in a mixer for normal FOH work. The key thing for me is to have processed, always-on global vocal channels (routed to discrete outputs) that I can run into stereo effect channels for each song using different plugins for whatever the song requires. People are using Live Professor 2 to do this with digital mixers using the Dante protocol (they send the audio for plugin processing and back into the mixer). VST Live is another step forward because it has the recording capability, midi, backing tracks, dmx, etc. But I don’t see how I can do what I want to do if I had, for example, a 30 song setlist unless there is a way to send global mixer channel outputs to song specific group channels.

@h20fam @musicullum @fkalmus I DID IT!!! Using virtual audio in - out loops i linked global stack to virtual out 1, to virtual in 1 to song stack, then send the song stack.

see video:

Hope this helps you!

cheers Ciro.

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Well, I can’t explain it perfectly. But think it something like you adjust global layers or stacks universally song by song through SongGroups w.o. further automation.

Maybe this help. There is no need to have only one global stack for one physical input. Instead, you can have as many (global) stacks as you want. Thats true for global stacks and song stacks and any combination. So why dont have one global stack for the dry signal and song stack(s) for effects. And you can add song group channels to the song stack(s).

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That would work, but then I have to reprocess the dry vocal signals. I want to send the already processed signals to the effects.

That is also a valid solution only if you want unprocessed signal from imput to song stacks, but he wants processed signal from global stack inserts to go to song grup effects. Only method is via virtual audio out routed to virtual audio in for song stacks as i showed in last video i posted earlier.

Lot of flexibility for any kind of solution anyway!! Great customizable routing we have here!!

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You can send the processed signal to virtual audio and use this one as input for other stacks. Also here, you can have as many stacks as you want with the same virtual audio input.

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