Problem transposing music frames with extra staves

[pmc.galoubet]

There seems to be a problem when transposition meets extra staves. The project I am sending is one half of Couperin piece, with an A major section and a B minor section. I had transcribed a first version in F major and minor, when I realised that it would work better for my players in G. Since I had already done a lot of tuning about ornaments and such stuff. I decided to transpose the piece. At first look, the pair Select All / Transpose including Key Signatures worked like a charm. Yet when I tried playback, I had some surprises. Normally I use playback only for proof-reading, and do not look for subtleties. But I admit I was seduced by Christian_R’s description of a mechanism to implement ornament playback through extra staves, which actually looked very simple … as long as you did not need to repeat some procedure one hundred times. The Couperin piece has a lot of tremblements and pincés, but only a handful of turns, and it had been tempting to experiment with that. But I discovered that the notes I had written for that extra staff had not been transposed. More experimentation suggested that notes in the extra staff were only selected by Select All if they were visible. This is not easy to prove, since they are hidden when Select All takes place, and you cannot make them visible again without unselecting all other notes! So, it can only be deduced, and the following steps seem to support that idea.
Here is the project:
Musetes Choisi et Taverni-Gtest.zip (929.0 KB)

Here come the steps (I include snapshot images, but the actual Dorico screen display can validate the notations I describe):

Step 0:

Open the "Musetes Choisi et Taverni-Gtest " attached project.

I suggest keeping it in Concert Pitch Layout, it will simplify note readings.

Let us focus on the major section (which conveniently has no alterations), the 2 last systems of the first page, and the top player.

As can be seen, there are 3 notes with a Turn ornament and a Playback suppress attribute: the last eighth of the top system (a B flat), and the last eighths of the 2 first bars of the bottom system (both Fs). And I had entered notes implementing the ornaments for all and then, then applied playback suppress to them, then hid the implementations. I shall call them the “playback extras”.

Step 1:

Now right click the first of them (the B flat), and select Staff/Add Staff Above. As a result:

the “playback extra” appears, the notes are C B(flat) A C.

Step 2:

Now right click the first Playback suppressed F, and select Staff/Add Staff Above. The result:

The “playback extra” appears, the notes are G F E F.

Step 3:

Now undo the last “Create Extra Staff” or hide this extra by any other means. The display will return to the image in Step1.

Step 4:

Call Edit/Select all. Then Call Write/Transpose, choosing a Major Second as interval, the Up direction, and checking Transpose Key Signature.

The color shows that all that is visible is selected, including the first playback extra, and the transposition is perfect, including the key signature.

Step 5:

Select the first playback suppressed F like in step 2 (which will unselect everything else) and right click to invoke Staff/Add Staff Above.

The notes in the appearing “playback extra” are still G F(natural) E F. So I deduce that the part of the extra staff that was “hidden” was not transposed, but the Key Signature transposition made the natural alteration necessary.
Apologies for the verbosity of this report

[PjotrB]

In Dorico, it’s by design that you can only select items that are visible. Otherwise you’d never know what you could be ruining behind the scenes.
In order to transpose everything, like in your case, including all ornaments in extra staves, you need to do it on a layout that indeed shows everything. You could create a temporary extra working Full Score for this operation only.

[pmc.galoubet]

Now that I have identified the problem, I can easily anticipate it and find ways to prevent it. But I have several issues with the rationale you give:

First, Select all should mean SELECT ALL! But I will have an amendment for that at the end, please wait for it before reacting .

I might never know what I could be ruining behind the scenes by selecting invisible items, but I know what I was ruining by not selecting them!

There is a phrase in the doc:
If you delete staves without deleting the music on them, that music still exists and is included in playback. If you later add staves at the same position, the music reappears.
This indeed shows that extra staves are a powerful feature (does this refer only to hand-made ornaments, or to more than that?), which does mean it could be misused, at the same time, it means that such items can be invisible but still be audible, thus perceptible.

And last but not least, I just discovered a much better way to solve the problem, which is to Select nothing before transposition! I was not even aware that Write/Transpose could be done on an empty selection, but I was experimenting with a selection of only keys, no notes, and Dorico obligingly suggested to me that I should try an empty selection. And the transposition worked perfectly on the invisible music! Select nothing is “a better Select all”

I think this relativizes your first sentence, and my first answer line. It is not taboo to do stuff to invisible music behind the scenes, but there needs to be a framework about it.
Don’t you think that something of all that should be added to the help on extra staves?

[PjotrB]

TBH, I didn’t realise there was this trick to select nothing. I agree the manual should mention it (I didn’t look it up).
I wonder, though: in a multi-flow project, does Dorico transpose the whole project, or just the current flow? And how would it know what is the ‘current’ flow if there’s nothing selected anywhere? Or when more than one flow is visible? I’m not at my computer right now, otherwise I’d like to try it myself.

[pmc.galoubet]

The message I got when I tried to transpose with nothing but clefs selected was clear: no selection would result in transposing the current flow only.
As for the question “would it know what is the ‘current’ flow if there’s nothing selected”, it puzzles me a liitle too. My original piece had 2 flows, and when you ask for playback from the start of the flow, playbacks chooses one of them! I guess that:
When he proejct is open , the first flow is set to be he current flow
When anything is selected the current flow is updated to be thefkow contaning the selection
If you use the GoTo next flow, or to previous flow, the current flow is changed to that
And probably in setup mode if you select a flow in the lower zone it is changed also, and of course if you delete a flow it will move to the next or the previous one
So Dorico manages anyway
The only thing I am no sure about: is visibility totally ignored, or if you scroll the pages so that the current flow becomes invisible, does that change the current flow?

[pmc.galoubet]

Oops! I shall have to eat my words (some of them at least, not for the first time).
I wasnot sure whether there is one notion of “current flow” or several.
I did try 2 notions (with my piece with 2 flows):

A: I setup a Write/Transpose action by a major second, up, with key signature transposition checked and then invoke it without selection.
B: I invoke Play>Playback from start of Flow.

For A:

1. If I run it immediately after opening the project, contrary to the eror mesage I referenced, the 2 Flows will be transposed!
2. If I run it after invoking Edit/Goto next flow, the 2nd flow is transposed, except in some scenarii where Transpose key signatures is uncheckable then the test fails (reason yet undetermined!).
3. If I run it after selection in any flow followed with unselection, then only the appropriate flow is transposed.

For B:
Though I had initially bet on B, simple tests show that playback is not a good criterium for “current flow” identification.
Sure ways for play to start in the 2nd flow are
Invoking Play/play from selection with a selected item in the 2nd flow
Invoking Play/play from playhead
Barring that, if I invoke Play>Play from start of flow immediately after A, it will still play from the first flow.

I think that playback has its own version of things, and that the A criterium is the best one, but it seems that at the start the current flow is NULL, which in a way means ""all flows.
It is the best I can do anyway .

[PjotrB]

Interesting observations! I’m curious what the ‘official’ workflow would be, and whether we might need a little clearer feedback.

[pmc.galoubet]

I absolutely agree !
There remains the fact that there is, to some extent, two notions of “current flow”, from the score notation P.O.V, and from the payback P.O.V., and that they differ. This means 2 different workflows, and even if there was agreement about the order of importance, it would be awkward to give a detailed dscription for one, and ignore the other. And that means double, and probably more delicate work for some poor writer.

[Janus]

@pmc.galoubet

My original piece had 2 flows, and when you ask for playback from the start of the flow, playbacks chooses one of them!

Perhaps you are failing to see the Flow selector dropdown in Play?

[pmc.galoubet]

Actually, yes I did fail!
I do not spend that much time with playback and particularly little in Play Mode, except when playback itself fails! Add to that the fact that this is my first score with two flows! And the fact that this selector is disabled any time that anything is selected in one of the windows I am not seeing .
Thanks for the tip anyway!

[pmc.galoubet]

While I was at it, I checked that using this selector has no effect on the other side of “current flow”!

[Christian_R]

@PjotrB

And how would it know what is the ‘current’ flow if there’s nothing selected anywhere?

@pmc.galoubet

As for the question “would it know what is the ‘current’ flow if there’s nothing selected”, it puzzles me a liitle too.

Hi @PjotrB and @pmc.galoubet,
I found out that if you select the desired flow in Setup mode (in the lower Flows panel), the transposition (with the “nothing selected in the music itself” method, to transpose also the invisible ornaments) will be applied to that very flow, selected in Setup mode (to speed thing up you can switch to Setup mode with the shortcut command(control)+1 and back to Write mode with command(control)+2 )

[pmc.galoubet]

Hi Christian and thabks for coming to the rescue .
But I had given up on use of the Setup mode, because of my former experiments.
Are you speaking about selecting exactly one flow in the lower zone of the setup mode? I just did that: selected Flow 2 in the Flows Setup mode lower zone, switched to write mode, made sure nothing was selected (Ctrl D), invoked Write/Transpose, and Flow1 only the only one transposed.

[Christian_R]

@pmc.galoubet

Are you speaking about selecting exactly one flow in the lower zone of the setup mode?

Exactly.

@pmc.galoubet

I just did that: selected Flow 2 in the Flows Setup mode lower zone, switched to write mode, made sure nothing was selected (Ctrl D), invoked Write/Transpose, and Flow1 only the only one transposed.

Try instead this (I tried and it works):

1. first, in Write mode, press command(control)+D to deselect anything
2. then switch to Setup mode and select the desired flow, with the mouse, on the lower Flows panel
3. now switch back to Write mode and choose from menu Write → Transpose…, and make your transposition as desired: it will be applied to the flow that you selected in the second step)

[pmc.galoubet]

Wow! The difference lies in 1)! Making sure that nothing is selected before even switching to Setup mode! Very subtle.
Thanks a lot.
By the way, I knew it was possible to “quote” posts in a reply, like you did, and I never found out how to do it, I never foumd a “Quote Post” action button. Please teach me

[Janus]

@pmc.galoubet

By the way, I knew it was possible to “quote” posts in a reply, like you did, and I never found out how to do it, I never found a “Quote Post” action button. Please teach me

Highlight the quote you want to make in someone’s post and click the quote tab that appears.

(I know you are obsessed with logic, but to transpose a particular flow, including hidden stuff:
select something in it;
ctrl-D to deselect everything;
transpose.

It’s a simple 3 step process)

[Christian_R]

(@janus was faster )

@pmc.galoubet

I never foumd a “Quote Post” action button

[Christian_R]

@pmc.galoubet

Making sure that nothing is selected before even switching to Setup mode!

Yes, this at least is a possibility on telling Dorico how chooses the flow to be transposed.

Here a little video:

Or just use the great method suggested by @Janus :

@Janus

select something in it;
ctrl-D to deselect everything;
transpose.

[pmc.galoubet]

Thank you @Janus and @ Christian_R!

Yes, @Janus, once you know there is a way, and once you know that way, which might finally be simple, it all becomes very easy :-). This is the “Eureka” solution. You just have to reach that point.

Have a good night, I do not know where you guys lie on the world map, but apparently you never sleep!