ritenuto and crescendo together

Supports Dorico „rit. e cresc.“?

  • as a sign ?
  • for playback ?

You mean together, as a tempo marking? Off the top of my head, I can’t tell you how Dorico might interpret that if you type it into the popover; I have a feeling it might loose the “e cresc.” and keep the rit. as a tempo alteration. You can then input the “e cresc.” into the text field.

If it does parse as a tempo alteration, it will affect playback, as far as tempo is concerned. But it won’t do both tempo and dynamics from that one marking.

Yes, “rit.” and “cresc” should be together.
I use already the two labels separate.
“rit” and “cresc” landing in separate lines. It should be made from the same point and they take up too much space.

Dear Piano-EK,
The problem here is that Dorico interprets rit. as a tempo marking and cresc. as a dynamic. Do as LSalgueiro has suggested, or input cresc. in the dynamics popover and select it. In the properties panel, enable prefix and add “rit.e” there and it should look fine — but dorico will not “interpret” the rit. in the playback — anyway it does not interpret it right, if I am not mistaken.
Hope it helps !

I can also text writing „rit. e cresc”, this is not the subject of.
I have not thought up this, there is such a thing really (see picture).

Marc, Dorico interpreted “cresc.” or “rit” very well in playback.
I search an option which does both.

Dear Piano-EK, I know Dorico interprets those when you enter them accordingly to what they are, i.e. a tempo marking for rit. and a dynamic for cresc. Though I’m not convinced by the way the rit. is made :wink: But I was just pointing out that if you enter those as dynamics (it’s what it looks like, in your example), the rit. will not be interpreted in playback. It’s not a major drawback for me, but I added that just for the sake of being precise.
It has already been asked in the forum if the team could implement such gradual tempi changes with that looks (italic), and the position (inside the piano staves and not above, like any tempo marking), but I don’t think we had an answer from Daniel about that…

Putting rit e cresc. might be nice for a piano work, but in an orchestral score the tempo change and dynamics changes for different instruments might vary considerably, which is another reason the Dorico team may have decided to keep them separate.
ritecresc.zip (459 KB)

The position of “rit e cresc” would be not so important (inside the piano staves or above).
This is right,to the same play the writing of Prefix would reach. Playback performs but only crescendo.

As we’ve been trying to explain, there’s really no way Dorico can parse a tempo marking when it’s dressed as a tempo marking — not Dorico, not any other notation software, as far as I know. What you can do is add the tempo marking separately and then hide it.

In this case one could hide it (luck thing because with many other signs this does not function, e.g., with octava sign).

The example I attached above does just that: it uses a hidden rit. above the staff and (one thirty-second note/hemi-demi-semi-quaver later) a cresc. with an added prefix to show “rit. e”.

And it produces both effects on playback.

That’s what I understood.
You can hide the text with “Common|Color” (I wrote it above)
or, as well as you have made it,
with Text|Abbreviation - replace with blank.

Always these detours if you could get directly to the target faster. :frowning:

Every time I come across this it occurs to me how brilliant it would be to be able to drag one of the markings on top of the other and have them joined together with a “e” between them.

With Vocal / Piano scores, the dim. e. rit. etc.appear in the middle of the grand stave. With Dorico there’s no problem putting text dynamics in that position but tempo markings appear to be fixed above the staves. I was hoping Alt-Shift from the bottom stave might enable it, but sadly not. Is there any chance of an additional option in the System Objects box to enable the markings to go in between a grand stave?

ETA: Just realised I raised that last point earlier this year - apologies.

The problem with “rit. e dim.” or “dim. e cresc.” kind of markings is that they conflate two markings into one marking, and modern notation practice treats these two things differently. “rit.” is a tempo marking and should be bold and above the staff, while “dim.” is an expression marking and is italic and normally below the staff. What benefit is there to combining these, unless you are trying to go for the exact engraving and layout as a previous edition of the work? It doesn’t make it easier for the player to read having them combined, because people are trained to find dynamics below (or in middle of grand staff), and tempos above. And should the combined marking be italic or bold? I just think combining the markings causes more problems than it solves.


There are many people who spend most of their time reading old music editions (“old” being anything from the 19th century back to the 17th) and are very used to finding text like “rit e cresc”.

Dorico has sort of thrown the baby out with the bath water, and doesn’t have any “expressive” category at all for notations in the score. Everything is re-classified as something technical, like “dynamics”, “tempo”, “playing technique”, etc.

There are a lot of good things about that design, but it’s not the only way to think about notating and performing music.

Exactly. Obviously notation must have rules, but I struggle with the idea that those rules are unquestionably inviolate. Most of the cresc. e rit. examples I"ve come across are even more recent - 20th century. The Broadway piano reduction squad were never happier than when they were shoving things together in the middle of a grand stave - and IMVHO their vocal scores are all the more beautiful -and more easy to understand -for doing so.

There’s an example of combined tempo and dynamics in Gould (p. 326).

I guess the Broadway squad were Finale users, and shoving everything into “expression text” is the quickest option even when it’s not the easiest thing to understand :wink:

Personally, I set these things up as Playing Techniques in Dorico but with no playback action defined, and then (1) you can format them any way you like, (2) if you re-use them the formatting is guaranteed to be consistent, and (3) if you care about playback, you can add some more hidden items that Dorico can understand.

To riff on a prior suggestion…
Add a suffix (or prefix) to the dim in the expression popover/properties.
Hide the rit tempo expression.
dimAndRit.dorico.zip (426 KB)

Leo Sowerby, for one, used the term ‘broadening,’ which in a single word meant both slowing and getting louder. It was in organ compositions, though, so not subject to the problems such a marking might have in an ensemble setting.