Setting a sub in Nuendo

Hi!, I just need some help, I’m going to add a sub to my Stereo setup to get the full range , I’m working with the Dynaudio Core lIne, can someone give me some information to set Nuendo to do this?, I’m using an Apogee Quartet, I don’t know how to set Control room to use (let’s say the channel 3) as a bass management… Musicians,

Thanks!

There are different ways… LFE vs Sub Extension

LFE is a full range output with limited elements sent to the mix. Used in surround sound.

Sub extension (sounds like what you are trying to do) is added to the stereo output and has a cross-over frequency to match the main LR roll-off curve.

Consult the speaker manufacture for the best connection practice. Some should have separate signals per channel (aka three physical outputs for Left, Right, and Sub). Some should have a satellite connection (aka Left and/or Right pass the signal to the Sub).

If you want to configure LFE or have isolated control… You might be able to do this with your Apogee Quartet features. Most interfaces with multiple outputs have routing and mixing features, allowing you to send LR to the Sub without configuring Nuendo. Of course… You can do this with Nuendo and Control Room too.

You can simply set up a main output (with more than two channels) and route low end from the main channels to your LFE/Sub channel/output on your interface using the Bass Manager included with Nuendo in Control Room:

Bass Manager (steinberg.help)

A benefit with using it is that you can set up your Control Room to switch that in and out of the chain for example. Of course the drawback of doing it that way is that your bass management is confined to Nuendo, or rather that you have to set it up for each individual application. The other way is doing it in hardware, either by just having main LR outputs go through the sub and have the sub do the crossover, or by using an external monitor controller with bass management built-in.

I used bass management in Control Room for quite some time and it worked fine.

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Thanks Mattias and SoundsLikeJoe, I’ve been contact Apogee and Dynaudio for getting more information, the 5.1 settings have no mystery at all, the problem is the Sub Extension, in stereo setting, Quartet can send main channels (L+R) to a second stereo output line, but it’s always stereo no mono, that’s the problem, I’ll buy Dynaudio Core 59 + Core Sub (mono in), so I only can chose one channel from main STEREO to plug my SUb…not great deal I know, is there any chance in Nuendo to send the main stereo (LR) to a 3rd mono output? *using Control room of corse"

Pablo, if you can access all six outputs on the Quartet from within Nuendo there should be no problem. You can set up a main 5.1 output bus in “outputs” in the “audio connections” window with no physical outputs selected. Then you choose that as your output in Control Room instead. Route the channels to outputs in the control room tab according to how you have them hooked up physically, for example:

Nuendo Control Room out 1 (L) - Quartet out 1 (to left speaker)
Nuendo Control Room out 2 (R) - Quartet out 2 (to right speaker)
Nuendo Control Room out 3 (C) - unused
Nuendo Control Room out 4 (LFE) - Quartedt out 4 (to subwoofer)
Nuendo Control Room out 5 (Ls) - unused
Nuendo Control Room out 6 (Rs) - unused

If you do this you have, in practice, a 5.1 monitoring path where you’re using only L, R, LFE. Using the Bass Management plugin in Control Room you should be able to take the low end out of your L/R channels and send them to the subwoofer channel, which will be the same as the LFE, output 4.

When you mix you can still have a stereo output bus that you call “Stereo Mix” or whatever (not connected to physical outs in the output tab) and that’s what you will use as a source in Control Room. So you mix as usual into the final “Stereo Mix” stereo output bus, and then you use that bus as a source in Control Room and choose the default 5.1 output you set up with bass management. You could set up a second output in Control Room that uses just stereo out and you can map that so that Left goes to physical out 1 and Right to physical out 2 - no bass management - and practically speaking you should now have the ability to essentially switch the sub in and out of the chain simply by switching between monitor out 1 (5.1 with BM) and monitor out 2 (stereo, no BM).

Makes sense? Or maybe I misunderstood your problem…

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Also… It’s not necessary to configure ANY of this inside Nuendo. Apogee Quartet’s software mixer can route any of the signals to your sub. You need to read the manual and watch tutorial videos on how to use the equipment.

This link has a video. At around 1:00 it shows you the routing tab. Set your “Output Routing” in the Apogee to Mix. This will send all software outputs to any hardware outputs.

Thanks you both! I’ve already watch the apogee video and the user manual, with apogee maestro only can route stereo pairs, not mono, this is the problem…
Mattias looks like a great plan!, in a couple of weeks the speaker will arrive and the experimentation days will star hahaha.

https://www.thecargocult.nz/products/stemcell
It can be a solution also, I compose my music in Nuendo and i delivery it on a Protools session, so perhaps I can use the same plugin for both daw.

Use Mixer 02 for Outputs 3/4. Set the software return to Mono. Eh?

Interesting. Until now I thought that “Stemcell” only works with ProTools. Do newer versions of this software also work with Nuendo (VST)?


Hi!, finally it was not necessary to use the Sub extension, my Dynaudio core 59 can manage the low end really good.
I’m working in 5.1 sessions for a Netflix serie and I’d like to share my setup to know if this is a good option.
I’ve created 5 5.1 Groups where I route my Stereo Tracks to create the STEMS, these 5.1 Groups are routing to a 5.1 Group that works as music mix Master.
I’ve added these plugins in every Group Stem to control the LFE signal (photo), first a Max Bass Mono and the a Low Cut at 97.
Is this the right way to do it or should I work in a different way?

The second picture is the stereo track with LFE signal, routed to the 5.1 Stem with these plugins as inserts.

Any tip will be very helpful!
Thanks
Pablo

It seems to me that you are taking a part of the low end from your groups and sending that to I guess the LFE channel in the 5.1 group. In my mind either one out of two things are happening.

Either you are taking that low end and sending it to the LFE while leaving the original signal full range. The effect of this should be that you effectively double up on that low end when the LFE is playing. So if you mix that so it sounds good then anyone without a sub gets “too little” low end in that range. In addition to that it seems to me that the other way of achieving the same goal is to just increase the low end in the main channels.

Or, you’re sending that low end to the LFE and cutting it out of the other five channels, which at that point basically amounts to ‘bass management in mixing’ for lack of a better expression.

My assumption when mixing in 5.1 surround has always been that my mix environment is a properly (-ish) calibrated environment that provides 5 full range signals plus the LFE, and that the LFE is designated for effects that basically extend the mix in a sense. So what I do is I create a mono group called LFE to which I send anything that I consider to be an effect. But I want to make sure that I can cut out the LFE channel and still have a mix that works really well and isn’t light on low end so the only thing that goes to the LFE is LFE-exclusive.

I’m also assuming that down the pipe consumer systems do their thing. That means the five channels are either full range (unlikely) or they incorporate bass management and a sub to extend that range. So I shouldn’t have to take that into account in the mix.

A caveat here is that I’ve done mostly audio post, and pretty much all of my 5.1 mixes are such that they normally don’t require anything at all in the LFE.

I’m curious to see if others have different opinions about this, but that’s my 2 cents anyway.

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No, we do it the same way.

The LFE is an independent channel. It should not contain any elements that are part of the “main mix”. These parts would otherwise be missing in a downmix. (For example, if a 5.1 track is encoded into a consumer format such as Dolby TrueHD, the LFE components are discarded for the stereo downmix). Therefore, it is important that all essential audio in the LFE channel be complemented (not replicated) in the main channels.
Our basic rule is that the mix must already sound perfect without the LFE.
The LFE is only used by us for those things that make the ground shake in reality. (For this reason, we practically never use the LFE for music, for example.)

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Great tip, thanks! so my mix should sound complete without LFE, I use it only for some really low music hits or a bass with really low frequencies, but the high cut in 96/100 is ok?, I understand that if the main channels has really low frequencies (let’s says under 50 I should not cut them, is ok that logic?
So when you create a downmix to Stereo the LFE is not included.

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as has been explained :slight_smile:

LFE = Low Frequency Effect

NOT the low frequencies from the main mix

The confusion might arise because you are using the same subwoofer for both LFE and BASS MANAGEMENT. But they are different.

As previously the ‘EFFECT’ part of Low frequency EFFECT isn’t normally relevant in music production…

You should NOT be cutting out anything below 50hz on the main mix - that is the job of bass management which is a downstream process and not relevant to the main mix.

When you downmix to stereo the LFE channel may or may not be included - I mean if you are watching a movie in stereo you don’t want to miss the explosions or earthquake effect.

Basically - if you are doing music and are confused, then the rules for you are:

  • Ignore / do not use LFE
  • do not cut low frequencies from your main mix

to repeat one last time: LFE IS NOT low frequency from the main mix

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I agree with MAS and Strangelove.

As we mentioned, it would be an additional separate sound that is there only for the purpose of creating an effect in the LFE. So if you have a music hit where you want rumble you could do that by sending some sort of low-end rumble to the LFE, and nowhere else. I think that’s the idea we’re after.

I think you should check specifications for the delivery format you’re aiming for. I know that some (Dolby) specs require 31.5Hz to 120Hz +/-3dB for the LFE channel / subwoofer. That implies that the channel itself should be allowed to contain up to 120Hz (and I think during render/master the LFE may be automatically limited to <120Hz).

Now, obviously nobody is forcing you to go that high, so placing a high cut at 100Hz shouldn’t really be a problem if it sounds fine.

I think the only question is why you are using a high cut filter and why you set it at that point…(?)

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Mattias!, I’m using a high cut, not a Low Cut, thanks for the dolby information!

Sorry, I read you right and wrote me wrong. Anyway, it doesn’t really change how I see things but thanks for the correction. I’ve updated my post.

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That’s right. :grinning:
You usually have two options: Either you create a stereo downmix yourself. This can then be added to the multichannel mix in the Dolby encoder. This mix is independent of, for example, the 5.1 or Atmos mix. The consumer with an Atmos system hears the mix in Atmos and the consumer with an ordinary stereo system (or the TV speakers) hears the separate stereo mix. However, only the Dolby Media Encoder (DME) or the Dolby Encoding Engine (DEE) offers this possibility. (Besides, hardly anyone uses this option.)
But there are other Dolby encoders (Mainconcept, Adobe, etc.) These usually offer only the automatic downmix. With this, the LFE for the stereo downmix is automatically discarded during encoding.

The others have already mentioned it: There is something else. The bass management of Dolby. Every Dolby AV receiver has a bass management. There, the user can specify that, for example, the LFE signals should be played back proportionally from the left and right front speakers when playing the surround sound. This is the case, for example, if the consumer does not have a subwoofer (i.e. 5.0, 7.0, etc.). In this case, the signals from the LFE sum up with those from the front speakers. Conversely, signals from the front and/or center speakers can also be sent to the LFE.

The subject of LFE is quite complex. Unfortunately, not much attention is usually paid to it.
I recommend reading Dolby’s 5.1 Channel Production Guidelines. They are older, but still valid.

The example, which is also used by Dolby itself, where the LFE can be used is the famous cannon shots in Tchaikovsky’s 1812 Overture. In such a case, the overall program level might have to be reduced several dB just so the last few minutes can make the desired impact without overload.
By using the LFE channel, the orchestra can be recorded at a normal level, with some of the loudest, deepest bass of the cannons carried in the LFE channel. Of course, the main channels will still carry the cannon shots so that they will be heard from the appropriate locations and in a downmix.

Another advantage using the LFE channel when carrying explosive bass signals is that smaller stereo systems may not be able to handle such high levels of deep bass without significant stress. Since the Dolby Digital downmix process discards the LFE signal, these low frequency signals will not present any difficulty for these smaller systems. The remaining portions of the bass frequencies delivered by the main channels will convey the essential aspects of the performance when listening to the downmix. Conversely, if you mix your bass components predominantly or even exclusively into the LFE channel, you will very likely ensure that listeners of the stereo downmix will describe the mix as lacking in bass.
We should not underestimate the fact that many people still listen to movies in stereo. Atmos has not changed that. Young people consume series but also movies today mostly on their laptops or smartphones. (If we are lucky, they at least wear headphones. :laughing:)

I’ll just add that the most recent 5.1 mix I did for TV required me to create several stereo and 5.1 mixes of each episode. In that case I used Nuendo’s built-in downmixing. Anyway, point being that it wasn’t Dolby Atmos, or even Dolby anything, just plain old TV, and the choice of how to handle it was mine. The production company likely delivered the main mastered file with 8 channels where 6 were the 5.1 mix and 2 stereo. Of course I don’t know what the network does when it broadcasts…